Vol pedal in FXloop help. Answer to low volume tube heaven?

[track7]

Hi i recently got the Little Alligator volume pedal and have been experimenting with where to place it, in front of the amp or in the FX loop.

And something hit me earlier today. I use a mesa boogie nomad 45 which is incredibly yet still sounds pretty good at low levels. ALthough not as good cranked obviously.

Yet when I put the volume pedal in the FX loop i could turn up the master and output on the amp to a good cranked position but have the pedal in almost full heel down position (volume very low) and the tone was incredible. Just like when its cranked without any vol pedal. Smooth, singing, creamy wonderful.

The thing is WHY!?! and more worryingly is this in anyway damging to the amp? Surley if it was this easy then there would be no one buying attenuators - which was next on my purchase list, however if someone can tell me that this trick with the vol pedal isn't hurting my amp then i dont think i need one.

Thanks in advance

David

[trouble311]

David,
I don't think you are damaging the amp, as far as I know. With the pedal in the effects loop, you essentially process the signal AFTER the preamp stage, I believe, but before it goes to the poweramp, as opposed to in front of the amp, which controls how much signal actually gets "pre-amplified."

When you bring the pedal back, you are essentially sending less of the signal "X" to the speakers. Your preamp- and power amp-defined tonal characteristics won't change, since the gain stages have already affected the signal. This is also the way guitarist have done volume swells (Steve Morse for example) for a long time. This is the only way I know to do so with a pedal, in fact.

I think this is how it works, but anyone with different opinions/info, please chime in!

Abe

[Jammy]

Seems like an interesting Idea. Send a normal, but quieter pre amp signal to your power amp (even with the volume up) and amplify less of it, therefore resulting in a quiter output...I like! I will have to try it once I get an amp that works .
The only thing I can see wrong with this is that yes, it will allow to turn your pre amp up more, but there will be no improvment in power amp tone, as that will be running at the same volume no matter what. I suppose you really want it between the output of the amp and the speakers, but for some reason I doubt that would do it much good. Am I right?

-better shred than dead-ANDY

[track7]

Thanks guys,

i know what you're saying and i thought this too but i cant understand why it sounds so good at low volumes this way. For example if i have the main output low and the chanel master low instead of doing it this new way it sounds a lot more buzzy and less smooth.

I might give mesa a call about this out of curiosity and see what they say. If anyone else has any ideas they'd be appreciated

Thanks again

David

[frethack]

A friend of mine does the same thing with his Budda Stringmaster. I dont understand how it helps his tone, because youre getting the same amount of signal to the power amp, but it does. Ive heard it both ways, and there is a definite change in tonal characteristics. He claims that its raising the voltage to the powertubes (Or something lke that), making them run hotter and sweeter at lower volumes. Of course it sounds much better cranked, but there is quite a bit of difference when played at lower volumes.

[track7]

Man i'm totally freaking out here its so god damned amazing!

I've been playing ALL morning I cant stop (bar checking the forum).

I dont understand it, it HAS to be doing something cause its a very sweet warm creamy tone at a volume my flat mates can live with

man i recommend everyone try this!

woo hoo

i'm happy!

David

[Gresh]

I've been doing this for a long time. My reasons were different though...I just wanted to be able to adjust overall volume without affecting the amount of gain in the signal. A volume pedal in front of the preamp section is just the same as using your volume on your guitar and you can dial out all the gain that way. I wanted full gain with overall control. I never really tried to use it to run the power amp harder, but it would definitely do the trick.

I do love the way the nomad sounds fully opened up, sounds like you found a way to get it all the time.

[dot-dot-dot]

For "proper" power tube saturation you need the master volume cranked, and to be hitting the power amp with a nice hefty signal. Cutting the volume before the power amp will prevent this - but it's quite possible that having the master volume cranked, with a smaller input, will sound different from having the master volume lower with a higher input.

If it sounds good to you then go for it - it's not doing the same job as an attenuator, but it's the end results that matter.

[bpd111]

Just don't actually push the pedal down... Ouch!!!

[vai n maiden]

hahaha yeah.... BOOM!

[bduersch]

I had done this for quite a few years... it's a great tip for regulating the volume of an amp and still maintaining good tone.

Only watchout I have... I was warned to only use passive volume pedals, not active volume pedals. Theoretically an active pedal (with a built-in boost) could hit the power amp section harder than it's expecting. Not sure if that's really an issue or not, again, just somthing I was warned about.

The vast majority of volume pedals are passive anyway, so probably not a big deal!

--B

[screamndemon69]

the active- passive volume issue is right on. if you send ANY gain device thru the FX loop you could damage your amp.
i've seen people mess up some good amps running processors using the distortion thru an FX loop and as Mr.Mackey says, "Children, um, ok, that's bad".

[track7]

Thats strange the little alligator is an active vol pedal, but in their manual it says its designed for both before the amp AND in the FX loop..

am I damaging my amp!?!

Help!!

David

[bduersch]

Originally Posted by track7

Thats strange the little alligator is an active vol pedal, but in their manual it says its designed for both before the amp AND in the FX loop..

am I damaging my amp!?!

Probably not... if memory serves me correctly, the Little Alligator (since it doesn't use pots, but rather LEDs) is technically an active (powered) device. However, I don't believe you can generate any boost of the L.A. (e.g., sweep goes from 0% to 100%), so I think it should be safe. I used an L.A. in my FX loop for a while without any problems.

Now if the pedal had a boost switch on it (e.g., boost to 110% or 120% output), that would be an active pedal to steer clear of.

--B

[track7]

Ahh right i think I get it now...

phew! thanks bduersch i cou;dn't believe that I was gonna have to stop doing it...it souds soooo good!

David