2 Humbucker HH and Ibanez 5 way switch

[Brando Clean]

The HH Ibanez models with a 5 way switch use a special (non-strat or RG 1550, 550 type) switch....right?

I am looking at diagrams for the RG7321 and models with similar switching and the switch has to be different or else the bridge is split and the neck is on and or off at different ..wrong times..

Ok that didn't make sense, but the switch is different...right?

The Schecter PT I had used to be a HH and a 5 way until I swapped it out for a 3 wau and sold the switch. I think that switch might have been a special type too. Anyone know what it is called? I can't see anything special on stew-mac.com (Unless I missed something).

[mike80sguy]

its the way your pups are hooked up. Tipically a HH config with w 5way switcher will do this
1 Neck Humbucking
2 Neck Single
3 Neck Single + Bridge Single
4 Bridge Single
5 Bridge Humbucking

a 3 way tipically turn on 1 neck, 2 both, 3 bridge. Or if the Pups are splittable the mid position might be wired to turn on both singles.

So its more the wiring than the switch it self be it theres a lot of those out there too. If you dont want the neck going along with the bridge or whatever . check your wiring as is if your not sure its stock. Then re wire as disired.

[Brando Clean]

I was going for:

1 Bridge
2 Bridge split with neck
3 Bridge and neck (each in series) parallel together
4 Neck Parallel
5 Neck series

But I could probably do your idea easy. Thanks. I'll think about it. Seymour Duncan has a different one as well.

[marianozz]

Take a look at Ibanez' diagram for the RG3120, its exactly what you want (with the Ibanez switch) If not, email Dimarzio and theyll reply with a diagram for the Dimarzio multipole switch...

Both are great, but the dimarzio is a lil bigger...

[Brando Clean]

I can figure it out from that switch, the 4PDT, just the RG7321 switch looks like a regualr ibanez DPDT switch, but it isn't. Crap. I wonder where I can get the switch. I'll call around town...

[Vim Fuego]

If you look at http://www.geocities.jp/dgb_studio/2hvari_e.htm#105 this will show the wiring for the normal 5way 2 pole switch.
if you can get a 5way 4 pole switch (VLX91) http://www.geocities.jp/dgb_studio/2hvari_e.htm#37 will give you what you want I think. (You can get a VLX91 from Max at Cottam Guitars, that's where I bought mine!)
Jim

[eg]

Originally Posted by Brando Clean

I was going for:

1 Bridge
2 Bridge split with neck
3 Bridge and neck (each in series) parallel together
4 Neck Parallel
5 Neck series

But I could probably do your idea easy. Thanks. I'll think about it. Seymour Duncan has a different one as well.

Sorry, this could be a little out of topic. Just wondering if these are the same
Humbucking and series
Out of phase and parallel

[Vim Fuego]

In terms of Brando Clean's list, Humbucking and Series are equivalent.
I'll try and explain!
In a conventional humbucker you have effectively 2 single coil pickups in series.
The pickup 'bucks hum' because one coil is*wound* the opposite way to the other, one clockwise, one anti-clockwise. This means that any hum or interference in one coil would cancel out the interference in the other.
In order for the signal from the strings to add up the magnets need to be opposite as well i.e. north up on one coil south up on the other.
I don't know why the original design required the coils in series, but the side effect is that the resultant pickup has a thicker, bassier tone with more output.
If you wire the two coils in parallel then the tone will have more treble but the output will be less it will however still 'buck hum'.
For an almost single coil sound you just connect only one coil this will not 'buck hum'
The final option is to wire the coils out of phase. Here it's the signal that cancels not the noise! the result is a really thin sound as all you get is the difference from the two coils! The other problem is now the noise or hum will be in phase and add up!
For reference Brian may often uses his bridge and middle single coils in phase and in series just like a conventional humbucker. His other favourite tone is the neck and middle single coils in series out of phase. On his original guitar this last combination is not humbucking, but on the copies it is (the bridge pickup is reversed instead of the middle).
Jim

[Brando Clean]

"anti-clockwise"

Is that how they say it in the UK? In the US we say, "counter-clockwise." I thought you might be Spainish the first time I read your second post.

Vim Fuego said, "I don't know why the original design required the coils in series, but the side effect is that the resultant pickup has a thicker, bassier tone with more output."

I think the increased output and bass are the reasons why they did it. I am not positive though. I am still not sure why they made guitars as high Z (impedance) electronics in the first place. I think Les Paul had a good idea with low Z pickups, but... too late now. High z amps are ubiquitous.

Fuego said, "If you wire the two coils in parallel then the tone will have more treble but the output will be less it will however still 'buck hum'."

This is how strats in the 2 and 4 positions sound with either pickup and the middle pickup combined. On a Les Paul it is the middle position, so the 2 pickups are in parallel, but the pickups themselves are still in series, making it a series-parallel circuit as far as the pickups go. Similar to how many Marshall 4x10 or 4x12 cabinet speakers are wired.

I have been looking around and see I need a mega switch for my troubles. I need at least 4 poles to do it. I finally just sat down with a pencil and paper the other day and figured it out.

Vim Fuego knows what he is saying.

[eg]

Originally Posted by Vim Fuego

In terms of Brando Clean's list, Humbucking and Series are equivalent.
I'll try and explain!
In a conventional humbucker you have effectively 2 single coil pickups in series.
The pickup 'bucks hum' because one coil is*wound* the opposite way to the other, one clockwise, one anti-clockwise. This means that any hum or interference in one coil would cancel out the interference in the other.
In order for the signal from the strings to add up the magnets need to be opposite as well i.e. north up on one coil south up on the other.
I don't know why the original design required the coils in series, but the side effect is that the resultant pickup has a thicker, bassier tone with more output.
If you wire the two coils in parallel then the tone will have more treble but the output will be less it will however still 'buck hum'.
For an almost single coil sound you just connect only one coil this will not 'buck hum'
The final option is to wire the coils out of phase. Here it's the signal that cancels not the noise! the result is a really thin sound as all you get is the difference from the two coils! The other problem is now the noise or hum will be in phase and add up!
For reference Brian may often uses his bridge and middle single coils in phase and in series just like a conventional humbucker. His other favourite tone is the neck and middle single coils in series out of phase. On his original guitar this last combination is not humbucking, but on the copies it is (the bridge pickup is reversed instead of the middle).
Jim

That's very good info. Thanks.

How does this work for an Ibanez RG?

1. Neck humbucker in series
2. 1 Neck humbucker coil (further from neck coil) + middle coil ---> Is this parallel connected or out of phase or series - I know what they are hum-cancelling. Is this the same as a strat in the same position?
3. middle coil
4. middle + 1 bridge humbucker coil (further from bridge coil) ---> same question for position 2.
5. Bridge humbucker in series

If I were to tap the single coil in the neck that is nearer to the neck and wire it with the middle single, is it still possible to have the same effect as the strat in position two also? Hum-cancelling?

What happens when you wire two single pickups that are wound in the same way in parallel? Would they hum cancel too. Or would two single coils only hum-cancel when they have opposite winding directions.

For middle single coils, are they usually reverse-wound? If this is true then, In a HSH guitar ie. RG would this mean that they can only hum-cancel when combined with only one of the coils from the neck-humbucker, since both humbucker coils are opposite wound and only one coil would be opposite in direction from the middle single coil.

In effect, would this mean that combining the middle single with one neck coil would be hum-cancelling but combining with another neck coil would not?

How do you wire two pickups out of phase ?

Sorry for the many questions, but I'm quite confused about all this

[Brando Clean]

"1. Neck humbucker in series"

yes

"2. 1 Neck humbucker coil (further from neck coil) + middle coil ---> Is this parallel connected or out of phase or series - I know what they are hum-cancelling. Is this the same as a strat in the same position?"

It sounds similar to a strat, but not exactly. It needs to be parallel or it sounds harder and less twangy. The coils in the RG are parallel neck top and middle.

"3. middle coil"

yes

"4. middle + 1 bridge humbucker coil (further from bridge coil) ---> same question for position 2."

middle and top bridge coil. You could turn it and have it be closer to a strat sound. Not sure why they don't just make them this way.

"5. Bridge humbucker in series"

yes

"If I were to tap the single coil in the neck that is nearer to the neck and wire it with the middle single, is it still possible to have the same effect as the strat in position two also? Hum-cancelling?"

No

"What happens when you wire two single pickups that are wound in the same way in parallel? Would they hum cancel too. Or would two single coils only hum-cancel when they have opposite winding directions."

They swould have the same as before but with hum.

You need 2 opposing coils to cancel hum. Magnets are not important as you can take the magnets out of a single coil that is RWRP and wire it series or parallel with a non-RWRP pickup and cancel hum. The coil without magnets is called an "Air coil" or a "dummy coil."

"For middle single coils, are they usually reverse-wound? If this is true then, In a HSH guitar ie. RG would this mean that they can only hum-cancel when combined with only one of the coils from the neck-humbucker, since both humbucker coils are opposite wound and only one coil would be opposite in direction from the middle single coil. "

It doesn't matter on an RG style guitar because it will be reverse wound relative to one of the humbucker coils. What is more important is that the impedance is pretty close so it can cancel hum. You seem to understand the concept. You are correct. Not all SSS guitars have a middle RWRP pickup. Vintage re-issue strats sometimes do not.

"In effect, would this mean that combining the middle single with one neck coil would be hum-cancelling but combining with another neck coil would not?"

I think I answered this already so.. yes you are right.

"How do you wire two pickups out of phase ?"

Wire one coil positive to positive, neg to neg and the other coil pos to neg and neg to pos.

"Sorry for the many questions, but I'm quite confused about all this "

Nah. My thread is dead and you seem cool and willing to learn instead of spouting BS. Let me recommend reading www.seymourduncan.com FAQs. They have loads of stuff.

www.Dimarzio.com have a brief but useful FAQ
www.guitarelectronics.com has some good info too.

Let me also say. Many strat players like the 7 way switching strat. I think this idea is dumb with regular single coils (this setup similar to Brian May guitar). If you choose the neck and bridge together they are not opposites of each other so they do not hum cancel. If you choose all 3 pickups then 2 do not balance out the RWRP pickup which results in less hum, but it still hums.

These facts are based on my own personal experimentation.

Go ahead and try to stump me. I have wasted SOOOOOOO much time on this subject.

[eg]

I'm getting there but I still have some questions

For positions 2 and 4 (middle with either neck/bridge) on the strat, are they both parallel and in phase? Since you said earlier that the middle can only be reverse wound with respect with on the the coils. So does that mean that only one position of 2 or 4 is hum-cancelling, no?

Again on the HSH RG, since they have two coils each on the neck/bridge humbuckers, I suppose it is possible to have both positions 2 from neck+middle) and 4 to always be humcancelling, because I can always flip either the bridge or the neck humbucker around (interms of orientation) so that I either tap both coils that are nearer to the middle pickup or further from the middle pickup. Is my assumption correct also?

[Brando Clean]

"For positions 2 and 4 (middle with either neck/bridge) on the strat, are they both parallel and in phase?"''

For stock Fender strat wiring, yes.

"So does that mean that only one position of 2 or 4 is hum-cancelling, no?"

You learn quickly grasshopper.

"Again on the HSH RG, since they have two coils each on the neck/bridge humbuckers, I suppose it is possible to have both positions 2 from neck+middle) and 4 to always be humcancelling, because I can always flip either the bridge or the neck humbucker around (interms of orientation) so that I either tap both coils that are nearer to the middle pickup or further from the middle pickup. Is my assumption correct also?"

Yes, but you need to choose the right coil ie. the one that is RWRP from that of the middle. Who is to say which coil is actually RWRP because it is all relative to the coil that it is being compared to. If we use the middle coil as the model then we can find the correct humbucker coil to stop the hum. If you know nothing else you can use your ears. If you hook it to the wrong coil it will just hum. If you hook it up to the wrong or right coild, but backwards then you will get that out of phase sound. You can figure out how a pickup is wired just by listening to it.

For some reason Ibanez uses the inside coil of the bridge but the outside of the neck humbucker (because the pickups are wired exactly the same as far as polarity goes. I noticed on a Jem diagram it suggests to turn one humbucker so that both humbuckers use the outside coils when split (like a strat).

[Brando Clean]

Wait. What do you mean by, "one position?" are we still talking about an HSH guitar?

On a strat 2 and 4 are hum cancelling. same on a properly wired RG

[eg]

Originally Posted by Brando Clean

Wait. What do you mean by, "one position?" are we still talking about an HSH guitar?

On a strat 2 and 4 are hum cancelling. same on a properly wired RG

Can both neck/bridge singles be RWRP compared to the middle single? If not then I suppose only either 2/4 is hum-cancelling, that's what I can deduce so far. Perhaps you can clarify more.

Originally Posted by Brando Clean

For some reason Ibanez uses the inside coil of the bridge but the outside of the neck humbucker (because the pickups are wired exactly the same as far as polarity goes. I noticed on a Jem diagram it suggests to turn one humbucker so that both humbuckers use the outside coils when split (like a strat).

I'm quite positive that RGs uses the inside coils for both neck and bridge humbuckers, based on their diagrams on the website, and both are humcancelling. I believe that either one of them are turned around to achieve this. Same goes for the JS also, I think the bridge pickup is turned around so that when both inside coils for the neck/bridge pickup is on, they are humcancelling.