boutique pickups?

misplacedsanity · #1 11-30-2007, 10:09 PM

Copied this from another forum (I can't take credit for it, it's somebody elses post) I'm just curious as to what the people here had to say

Here's the thing that's been bugging me as I plan my second W build. Pickups - they're as simple as can be, really. I mean, you've got a magnet, some coil around it, a ground wire, and a hot wire. Magnets vary in size, shape, and composition, and the coil varies in composition, gauge, and number of turns. There's a little variation in pole piece size, but that pretty much covers it. Strength is gauged by DC resistance. Comparing, say, Fralin pickups with their closest GFS equivalents, I'm kind of stumped. You've got the same magnets, same wire, same resistance, roughly. One costs $40 and one costs $120. The GFS 'premium alnico' strat pickups in my Warmoth cost $60 for three, and they sound as good as any strat pickups I've played with. The Seymour Duncan little 59 in the bridge is a great pickup, and sounds totally different than the GFS neck and middle, but not better and costs $80. It's just different by design.

I'm NOT trying to imply that all pickups are equally good, at all. I've played through crappy pickups. BUT, given the same exact materials, measurables and physical dimensions, what the heck are you paying double / triple the price for? All I can come up with is 1) magic mojo, 2) geek cred, and 3) made in the USA ridiculousness. I don't believe in magic, don't have anyone other than you guys to brag to, and prefer Toyotas to Chevys.

So, what do you pay extra for, expressed in non-mystical terms? I'm tempted to find a store with a good return policy so that I can A/B some GFS pickups against some expensive ones, but I'd rather play than tinker, in general. If you've done that, I'd love to hear.

**elcid** · #2 11-30-2007, 10:46 PM

I wouldnt take credit for that either.
Its along the same lines as "all gutiars are wood, and wire so why pay more for the same thing"

Has whoever wrote this compared the GFS to the Fralins himself or did he just look at the specs and decide they were the same?

I use the pick ups I use because I know what to expect from them.
I know that if I had a JB, a Gibson 57 Classic or some WCRs I will be a happy guy. Id rather do that then dick with a $30 pickup I may or may not like and have to keep returning and installing until I find what I couldve had right off the bat

Im not even going to touch the "made in USA rediculousness" part as that would take the thread in the wrong direction

Jeremiah · #3 11-30-2007, 11:31 PM

I see where this guy is coming from, i am buying some gfs pickups myself, and if i don't like them, i will have someone tinker with them and change them how i want.

as for the all guitars are made of wood comparison...i think the biggest difference in guitars is the neck design. if you have a body with the same wood and pickups and thickness (but looks like a stump), it will sound almost identicle, the neck will change the sound some but not near as much. its mostly about neck comfort, type of wood and if it looks nice...many guitars are overpriced in my opinion (such as prs, any other decent brand with an excellent set-up can feel just as good, no need to pay multiple thousands of dollars for a stock guitar)

its all more about personal prefference than flat superiority...prices are what people will (sometimes ignorantly) pay...

ColinMmmmm · #4 11-30-2007, 11:46 PM

Bigger companies may have tighter quality control, which adds to the cost. A SD JB is gonna be a JB - the chance of getting a 'dud' is probably nil.

ColinMmmmm · #5 11-30-2007, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremiah

as for the all guitars are made of wood comparison...i think the biggest difference in guitars is the neck design. if you have a body with the same wood and pickups and thickness (but looks like a stump), it will sound almost identicle, the neck will change the sound some but not near as much. its mostly about neck comfort, type of wood and if it looks nice...many guitars are overpriced in my opinion (such as prs, any other decent brand with an excellent set-up can feel just as good, no need to pay multiple thousands of dollars for a stock guitar)

I can't believe I'm getting suckered into this . . . but . . . There are more factors involved in a guitar than you can probably count. The neck joint, hardware, grade of wood (all mahogany is not equal), even the type of paint can differentiate guitars. There may not be a HUGE difference between a $500 guitar and a $3000 dollar guitar with the same specs, but there is one, and you can usually tell by playing 'em. One day you'll want to treat yourself and you'll splurge.

RSVampire · #6 12-01-2007, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by misplacedsanity

I'm NOT trying to imply that all pickups are equally good, at all. I've played through crappy pickups. BUT, given the same exact materials, measurables and physical dimensions, what the heck are you paying double / triple the price for? All I can come up with is 1) magic mojo, 2) geek cred, and 3) made in the USA ridiculousness. I don't believe in magic, don't have anyone other than you guys to brag to, and prefer Toyotas to Chevys.

So, what do you pay extra for, expressed in non-mystical terms? I'm tempted to find a store with a good return policy so that I can A/B some GFS pickups against some expensive ones, but I'd rather play than tinker, in general. If you've done that, I'd love to hear.

sometimes you're not really paying more for any measurable difference. They are called boutique because they are generally handmade or manufactured in very little numbers.

The larger companies (ie Dimarzio, Seymour Duncan and EMG etc) can charge a lot less because they can produce 1,000's of these units a day so they get better deals on all the materials for the sheer volume of product they produce.

Jeremiah · #7 12-01-2007, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColinMmmmm

I can't believe I'm getting suckered into this . . . but . . . There are more factors involved in a guitar than you can probably count. The neck joint, hardware, grade of wood (all mahogany is not equal), even the type of paint can differentiate guitars. There may not be a HUGE difference between a $500 guitar and a $3000 dollar guitar with the same specs, but there is one, and you can usually tell by playing 'em. One day you'll want to treat yourself and you'll splurge.

Ha! i AM about to splurge once i get the money! but its just for a neck that is not currently made by anyone i am aware of...(see fav luthier thread)

misplacedsanity · #8 12-01-2007, 05:15 PM

Ok, So so-far we have expensive pick-ups cost more because they're made in smaller numbers and "I have an expensive one and I like it so why risk wasting money on a cheap one I may not like." To which I would have to ask, at some point didn't you have to take a risk on buying an expensive pickup you hadn't tried? Either way it doesn't really address the question.

Again I'm going to plagiarise someone elses opinion, but it's an opinion I'm begining to believe in more and more.........

The Gear Page mantra...

"If it costs more, if there is a waiting list, or if nobody else has ever heard of it...

it MUST be better!"

**elcid** · #9 12-01-2007, 05:27 PM

Dont get me started on The Gear Page.
What exactly are you looking for? People answered your original question. Yes a chance was taken before, I found what worked, Im happy with it. Why change because someone says GFS stuff is better when I have what I like already? the $30 I'd save with GFS over Duncan isnt worth my time.
Labor is expensive, personally I would pay extra to know that the person making the item isnt getting $2 per day.

I dont get the negative attitudes that are out there about boutique or high end items, but if someone says some cheap item isnt good, he's called a snob and an idiot who pays for a name.

jairic · #10 12-01-2007, 06:28 PM

I'm going to guess that part of it is where the GFS pick ups are made. I couldnt' find it on www.guitarfetish.com, though I didn't look too hard either. I have a GFS and I like it, and I've had some SD's and Dimarzio's I've liked. SD and Dimarzio have worked hard to get great reputations in the industry, they can charge more, you know you're getting a quality product with them, they have great websites, artists, etc. GFS has a simple website, no endorsee's and could be made in China. There are more variables to consider when pricing an item than the mechancial aspect, no disrespect intended.

misplacedsanity · #11 12-01-2007, 06:36 PM

Nobody has called anyone an Idiot or a snob. I'm asking a simple question, maybe I haven't been clear enough in asking it. I assumed, maybe wrongly, that people were willing to pay double or triple the price for a pickup because it was a better pickup.......my question was, seeing as how the same materials were used, what made the pickup better?
If people are paying a higher price to know there pickups are made in smaller batches or to pay the makers a higher wage thats great, I take no exception to that what-so-ever.

**elcid** · #12 12-01-2007, 06:49 PM

Just because its the same materials doesnt mean the materials are the same quality. Like Imentioned in my first post to say a pickup is jsut magnets and wire is like saying a guitar is just wood and steel. There are cheap parts that can be used and there are more expensive parts that can be used. Research to make pickups sound a specific way is also expensive. Fralin pickups didnt just happen to sound like they do, alot of time goes into figuring out how to make them sound like they do. Someone needs to pay for that time.

misplacedsanity · #13 12-01-2007, 07:41 PM

I'm kinda playing devils advocate here. Ive owned some cheap gear I've owned some expensive gear, and on the whole I am in full agreement the expensive gear has been the better gear. So please don't get me wrong, I'm not implying anyone is a snob or an idiot for spending an extra buck, I'd fall into that catorgary as much as anyone else (maybe not so much as anyone else, but thats only because I'm not in a position to do so, not through a lack of desire to do so.)
However, over the last few years I've moved away from off the rack stuff and over to parts guitars. Now, in buying parts, notably bodies and necks, the expensive stuff isn't the "fantastic toneful alder. "This alder body sounds twice as good as all our other alder bodies because it's very high quality alder therefor it's priced twice as much"....ect, nope, all alder bodies are priced around the same mark. The parts that go for double/triple the price are the pretty parts, the highly figured, the 5A quilts. I can understand that. What I don't believe is $2000 alder guitar is going to sound any better than $500 alder guitar because of the wood. I'm not saying that all alder is going to sound exactly the same, woods organic, some alder will be brighter sounding, some fuller, but sound being subjective diifferent doesn't mean better.
Anyway, getting back on topic, I'm putting a guitar together at the moment, I was going to try out a set of bareknuckle pickups, since everyone seems to be raving about them. But reading this guys post about pickups made me think. Like I said woods organic, it sounds diffrent. But an alnico V magnet is pretty much the same as every other alnico V magnet, please correct me if I'm wrong, i don't claim to be a magnet expert. And as far as R&D goes most of the cheap stuff coming out of the far east is all backward engineerd, maybe morally questionable but it isn't going to be any less reaserched. And again to step back to the original post, There isn't much to a pickup as far as conponants, its a simple thing, this isn't like an amp were I can see it being thrown together on the cheap. It's a magnet, some wire, plastic bobbin, dumped in some wax.
So I'm not trying to be argumentative when I ask, is there really anything that makes them worth triple the price?

I apologise for my terrible spelling, I hope it doesn't detract from the seemingly endless amount of crap I'm posting.

**elcid** · #14 12-01-2007, 07:43 PM

I cant imagine reverse engineering something being anywhere near as demanding as creating something of you own.

ryanb · #15 12-01-2007, 07:50 PM

<To Cid's response above> Exactly. The original quote severely underestimates the variables involved in making pickups and making them sound good. GFS pickups may or may not be great pickups (a decision which is very largely subjective). But as is true for any pickup brand, just because they are described with similar materials (at lower cost) doesn't in any way mean they must be as good. Certainly there are some little-know bargins out there, but not always. Most people don't bother with the little guys simply because they are the little guys -- they are largely unknown, without an established reputation. Most people don't want to spend the time and money trying every pickup out there. You pick the well-known models that you can trust to give you the sound you are looking for with a minimal amount of effort and a reasonable price.

When you move into the realm of the high-priced boutique pickups, you are now talking about a very discerning customer looking for a specific sound. They are willing to pay a premium for the hand-building, experimentation, and quality, ... and a certain amount of price inflation for exclusivity.

If an inexpensive pickup is really good, word will get out (and the price will come up eventually).

But the only thing that matters is how you like the sound. If you find a pickup that makes you happy for a cheaper price, by all means use it and be happy -- and spread some sound samples so others can judge whether it is a good deal for them as well.