Coil Tap vs. Out-of-Phase Switching

[horstausmforst]

The title says it all. I'm hotrodding my HSH JS, and have ONE free Push-Pull pot.

I made up two (in my eyes) working diagrams, the first is splitting neck+bridge Pickups so that you get a true 3-single coil strat config with the 5-way switch:

1: Bridge PU, Bridge coil
2: - nothing -
3: Middle Single coil
4: - nothing -
5: Neck PU, Neck coil

The second option would be simply using the push-pull-pot as phase switch for one side of the Bridge PU.

Is that misterious out of phase tone 'unreal' enough to make up for a loss of the versatility of option 1?? I simply don't want to butcher my guitar 3 times in the search of the 'better' option, when 1 time would be enough.

[Scott of Actual Time]

Originally Posted by horstausmforst

Is that misterious out of phase tone 'unreal' enough to make up for a loss of the versatility of option 1??

in my opinion, no. the true out of phase tone is thin, nasaly, and very low output. it's not useful for much of anything. some folks incorrectly call the in-between positions on a Strat or Tele "out of phase," but they aren't -- they're just two single coils in parallel.

if you wanted to take your H/S/H to Strat switching a step further, you could use the second push/pull to disconnect the ground from the middle position lug of the second side of the 5-way. this ground wire is what makes the humbuckers automatically coil cut in positions 2 and 4. however in a single coil mode using the outer coils, that ground connection shorts out the output to give no sound in 2 and 4. if you used the second push/pull to break that ground connection, you'd get all 5 Strat combinations:
bridge outer
br. outer + middle single
middle single alone
mid. sing. + neck outer
neck outer
you would have to pull both pots to get that full arrangement, because it requires three sets of switch poles and each DPDT push/pull only has two. i don't know that anybody makes a 3PDT push/pull pot.

that's pretty much all you can do to convert a H/S/H to a single coil mode without buying a different switch. the whacky H/S/H to S/S/S scheme i wired into my LACS Ibanezes uses a 24-pole switch to give all sorts of combinations with one push/pull: http://www.his.com/sha3u/gear/wiring.html

[JESTER700]

I like the OOP sound I get between my two buckers, but it's not earth-shattering. Kinda "stuck wah" sounding.

I use the double barrel switching arrangement on my HSH radius, but since I didn't want to cut another slot, the second 4 pole switch is a 5 position rotary. So I have no tone control. The volume control sports a push-pull that splits the buckers to single coils.

http://www.guitarnuts.com/wiring/doublebarrel/index.php

[horstausmforst]

Originally Posted by Scott of Actual Time

if you wanted to take your H/S/H to Strat switching a step further...

I thought about that, actually. The idea of a "3PDT-Switch" never really crossed my mind. That'd be way too cool, hmm..

Anyways, thanks for all your comments! I'll go for option 1 now.

[horstausmforst]

Scott,
Just FYI, I think I found a solution using the standard DPDT. Haven't wired it yet, but in my head, it's already working, lol.

Here's one row of the DPDT, wired to one pickup:

(a) -> to coil tap position of the 5-way (where Black and white wires of the pickup were originally)
(b) -> Black and White wires of the Pickup
(c) -> Connection from red Pickup wire, which is still soldered to the 5-way

So, in normal position, we got:
-Red is NOT directly connected to Black and white
-'normal' coil tap is achieved with the (a)-(b) connection

With the pulled pot:
-Red connected to Black and white, shortening out the neck coil
-The only connection to ground is the green wire, all the time.

I could also draw up a crappy diagram.

Or did I forgetabout something?

[Scott of Actual Time]

Originally Posted by horstausmforst

Scott,
Just FYI, I think I found a solution using the standard DPDT.

With the pulled pot:
-Red connected to Black and white, shortening out the neck coil

that's a neat solution. i definately think you should try it, but i don't know how cleanly it will work. with the pot pulled, you're connecting the B+W to hot by connecting B+W to the Red, which is hot because of the 5-way. the neck coil isn't shorted out, it's hot at both ends.

but current won't flow through a circuit unless one end is grounded. the bridge coil will produce current because the Green wire grounds it, but the neck coil won't. that's pretty much what you want. the only thing i don't know is if having that Red wire of the neck coil also hot will produce some noise. you can think of ground as resistance = infinity. the windings in that neck coil have some resistance, it's not zero, so that Red wire might pick up a tiny bit of signal from that neck coil.

but your idea is definately cool enough to give it a shot. you can tap on the neck coil poles with a screwdriver to see if there's much sound coming through, but remember that the vibration alone through a coil that is not hot will make a sound through the amp. you could also hold the guitar near a hum source like a computer monitor. if the neck coil is producing almost zero current, there should be little or no humbucking effect.

if you try this, do report back.

[frankfalbo]

Turning one coil "all hot" is something I do a lot. It's my secret way of getting the "other coil" whichever that is. I also use it so I can cancel hum with a middle single coil, but then still cancel hum if I go with the outside pickups like a tele. I thought about it for a really long time. I felt like the "all hot" coil would be an antenna for noise. But it isn't. I can't really explain why, although it could have something to do with electricity always finding the path of least resisitance. It could also have to do with the fact that it is a coil with hair-thin wires, not a long piece of unshielded braided cable. You know like since the wires are really thin and are running in "single file" or only one strand thick, maybe they aren't really susceptable to picking up noise on their own. If they weren't insulated and it was really just a huge band of wire that was all connected to itself, then it might make a difference. But as it is, there's still resistance in the coil, you're just connecting it to hot on both ends. That doesn't eliminate the fact that the thinness of the single strand wire produces a high amount of resistance. Perhaps enough to suppress or "resist" that outside noise.

But I have never picked up noise from that second coil. What I mean is, I've tried it both ways, in the same guitar, many times. Some of my guitars would short the coil until the next time I wanted to expeiriment, and then I'd have to switch it. I noticed no extra noise. I have other guitars where a switch chooses the coil, and that's how I do it. I switch from one coil "all hot" to the other coil "all ground". On those guitars its not any noisier no matter which coil I have on, unless it's the megadrive, or steve's special, since each coil is very different. On symmetrical humbuckers its the same.

[horstausmforst]

Today I re-wired my axe, and it's all working perfectly. Now I have the true 3-Single-coil-config in all 5 positions when the pot is pulled, while retaining the standard switching in normal position. Works like a charm; but the 'new' positions 2 and 4 don't sound that much different to the 'standard' positions;
for example position 2:
neck side of bridge PU + middle PU in normal switching,
and bridge side of bridge PU + middle PU when the pot is pulled
sound pretty similar (ok, a little 'earthier'); so I don't know yet if it was worth all the additional hassle to my first wiring, where 2 and 4 were quiet..

I did the screwdriver-test; there's still coming a very low signal from the 'all-hot' coils, but nowhere as much as in 'one-side-hot,one-side-ground' mode. I'm already in love with positions 1 and 5; those are the outer coils of the bridge/neck humbuckers.

Hope that helps; and to anyone who has access to a DPDT switch, I highly recommend this mod, even if it's just for positions 1 and 5.

(ps. sorry for my lame english!)

[Scott of Actual Time]

thanks frank for that very informative post.

Originally Posted by horstausmforst

Works like a charm; but the 'new' positions 2 and 4 don't sound that much different to the 'standard' positions;

interesting. i hear a clear difference between those positions on mine [and not the hum! ]. the middle + outer coil sounds are a little brighter and more edgy; the middle + inner is a little smoother.

Originally Posted by horstausmforst

I did the screwdriver-test; there's still coming a very low signal from the 'all-hot' coils, but nowhere as much as in 'one-side-hot,one-side-ground' mode.

so the screwdriver tap is not exactly the same in both those cases? the screwdriver will make a tiny sound tapping on the grounded coil of a split humbucker because the tap shakes the pickup. but it reads like you've checked for that possibility by comparing to the other positions.

Originally Posted by horstausmforst

I'm already in love with positions 1 and 5; those are the outer coils of the bridge/neck humbuckers.

i love those too, especially on a 22 fret guitar. enjoy!

[horstausmforst]

Originally Posted by Scott of Actual Time

interesting. i hear a clear difference between those positions on mine [and not the hum! ]. the middle + outer coil sounds are a little brighter and more edgy; the middle + inner is a little smoother.

Yeah, position 2 is indeed a bit more edgy, but the difference isn't as drastical as in positions 1 and 5.
While in position 4, I cant really tell any sound difference.

Originally Posted by Scott of Actual Time

so the screwdriver tap is not exactly the same in both those cases? the screwdriver will make a tiny sound tapping on the grounded coil of a split humbucker because the tap shakes the pickup. but it reads like you've checked for that possibility by comparing to the other positions.

Oops.. no I didn't check that. Now I did. It seems that the bit of noise is indeed just the vibration that you describe. So, tapping on a 'all hot' coil' is not louder than tapping on a 'all ground' coil.

Originally Posted by Scott of Actual Time

enjoy!

I do

[Scott of Actual Time]

Originally Posted by horstausmforst

Oops.. no I didn't check that. Now I did. It seems that the bit of noise is indeed just the vibration that you describe. So, tapping on a 'all hot' coil' is not louder than tapping on a 'all ground' coil.

cool. that agrees with frank's tests, that the both ends hot coil doesn't make any discernable amount of noise.

frank, i think your secret method isn't so secret anymore!