My search for the ULTIMATE TONE

jjensson · #1 06-07-2006, 09:19 AM

Hi folks,

I never wanted to ask for help on this topic, because tone/sound is very subjective, but hey, never say never...

Now that my financial situation allows bying a new bridge pickup, i'm searching again for my tone. I have a JEM7VWH with Breed PUs, but i think i'm not 100% happy yet.

The characteristics i'm searching for:
- Explosive attack - tone starts immediately whithout big effort, i need this for the thicker strings.
- Full fat tone - for soloing, personally i find Vai's tone too thin. Now that i'm playing .010 D'Addario strings it's better.
- Sustain - the Breed is pretty good at that.
- No sizzle - i hate it when the sound goes bzzzzzzz, Breed does good here too.

I have tried 2 different Duncans, i hated the sound of both. I suppose i'm a DiMarzio guy

I also tried Nuno's Bill Lawrence 10 years ago, but it was to thin and too harsh for me.

The Evolution was interesting in the beginning, but became very frustrating after a while - that scratchy attack and thin upper register and tight bass drove me mad. Of course i tried the ToneZone too - it was difficult, because i liked the warmth and fullness, but it was too weak in the upper register, didn't had the pressure a PAFpro or even Breed generates, a certain screaming-like sound. That was in an alder bodied Yamaha with .009 strings. A PAFpro i had in the very beginning and it suited my playing style, but later in the JEM7VWH it never worked. Too thin, mushy low end, kind of rigid tone.

I was very happy when i heard that new Vai sound around the Ultra Zone years. Long story short - the Breed PUs worked very good. Naturally my preferences have changed a bit since then, now i'm playing .010 strings, i like fusion more and more, but i'm a hard-rocker in my heart and still into Vai, Dream Theater etc. On the other side i love Robben Ford's fat and vocal-like tone and Allan Holdsworth's fluidity... Summa summarum - i need an allround PU, that's capable of a powerful non-typical, non-sizzling but still screaming sounds, and can still play progressive hard-rock with a nasty sound.

I settled for a Legacy amp because of the musical tone it produces, but that have to wait till the end of the year. Carvin is f****ng expensive in Germany!

I would like to try the DiMarzio Norton. What do you more experienced guys thing about this pickup? Any other recommendations?

I apologize for the long and slightly chaotic posting and would appreciate any help very much!!!
Thanks for reading - jj

JiMoSiTY · #2 06-07-2006, 09:39 AM

I say the answer to your quest lies in an Ultrasonic Ref.4 Humbucker...

jjensson · #3 06-07-2006, 09:49 AM

Never heard of this. What is it??
regards
jj

JiMoSiTY · #4 06-07-2006, 10:01 AM

Ultrasonic was a German company that made pickups.
They sort of look like EMGs, but they are passive.
Another odd note about them is that they have no magnetic pull!
I heard at one time, many guitar manufacturers were using them during guitar mfg process because they allowed the guitar to produce the most accurate tone for the kind of wood or something like that.

I've used them in several guitars and they are AWESOME.
The Ref.4 model is the higher output version at full volume, but can totally back off for perfect cleans.
There is also a higher output model, the Ref.6; I suppose that may actually be better for you if you occasionaly play metal or heavier distortion stuff, but the Ref.4 is very warm and smooth but still has bite.

They are difficult to find, but when you do, you should jump on 'em.

I don't want this to sound like a sales pitch by any means, but I've got a guitar with 'em in it that I was thinking of parting out...

Here's what they look like:

Ibateur · #5 06-07-2006, 11:00 AM

There's apparently a dealer in the Netherlands selling ref 3 and 5 (lasts)

ref 3 is apparently a singlecoil size pup.

frankfalbo · #6 06-07-2006, 11:02 AM

Also have a look at the Bartolini PBFs. The PBF77-D is exactly what you're describing. I haven't heard the Ultrasonics, but I've heard good reviews of them. The Bartolinis are readily available. Bartolini is the only company I have experienced that has been able to combine things like immediate attack and clarity with beef and sustain, without buzz. In a typical pickup, you are choosing one set of features over the other. With Bartolini (and perhaps someone like Ultrasonic or Evans) you can have all the things you want in one unit.

jjensson · #7 06-07-2006, 03:28 PM

Wow, very interesting replies. Thanks, guys. I will look into that. Frankly, it will be difficult for me to try another brand (not brave enough to risc money at the moment), but it's very good to know some alternatives.

How about the Norton? Because Germany in most cases is an availability-nightmare and i have found it in a store, white/f-spaced, i don't want to miss my chance. But if you think the Norton is not the right choice (too buzzy?), than i'll pass happily

And while we're at that, how about the new FRED (Mo'Joe)? Is it too buzzy? Have anyone tried it actually?

Another thing: if i want an explosive attack, what is better - more or less DC resistance? The Breed has a good attack with his 17k.

I read somewhere (Seymour Duncan catalog?), the thicker the polepieces, the more attack a pickup has.

Cheers
jj

rgr · #8 06-07-2006, 03:43 PM

The Norton is the exact pickup I was thinking of, it has the midrange of the TZ without the flabby bottom end and it has the harmonics of the Fred. I know,that's pretty much the description from the DiMarzio site, but it's pretty accurate, I put one in an old guitar of mine that the TZ was just too muddy sounding in and it worked great.

The Norton will probably be a little more percussive than the Breed, I find the Breed to be a very polite sounding pickup, although a great sounding pickup, it's just very smooth. The Norton will have a little more edge, in a good way.

That would be my suggestion, but we all hear things a little differently...

Sorry, can't comment on the Bartolinis or Ultrasonics. Also, since it's a JEM, you probably want to keep the "look".

As far as the Lawrence that you tried, real Lawrences (www.billlawrence.com) sound great, but you may have had a Bill Lawrence USA (www.billlawrenceusa.com), still a decent pickup, but not as good. But I don't think either of them will be what you are looking for. The have a pretty flat response and it sounds like you want a little more midrange.

jjensson · #9 06-07-2006, 03:49 PM

Yeah, i love midrange!

Remember reading an interview with Allan Holdsworth where he described his Boogie sound. And he said something along the lines of mids=max, bass=min, highs=...

thanks, rgr
jj

jjensson · #10 06-07-2006, 06:51 PM

Oh btw, are there any audio samples anywhere, where i can hear the Norton? Seems that it's not an overly popular pickup. Are there any known artists that use it?

jj

jjensson · #11 06-07-2006, 08:10 PM

@rgr:

When you say "the harmonics of the FRED", what do you mean by "harmonics". Do you mean "overtones" or do you mean "pinch harmonics"... Sorry if i seem a bit dense, but i never understood the term "harmonics". I have good practical knowledge in acoustics and electroacoustics, so i'm not afraid of technical terms ...

And can you elaborate a little about "more edge on the Norton". Do you mean more grit or more scratchy tone? I suppose not. Sure it's difficult to explain tone qualities, but i'd appreciate any further explanations i can get.

Thanks in advance
jj

ibanez2005 · #12 06-07-2006, 08:25 PM

You guys seem to forget that tone also has alot to do with your amp, effects chain and most importantly, the player.

sirbrandon101 · #13 06-07-2006, 08:35 PM

Dimarzio's website, dimarzio.com, has sound clips of most of the pickups, including the Air Norton.

Ki swordsman · #14 06-07-2006, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibanez2005

You guys seem to forget that tone also has alot to do with your amp, effects chain and most importantly, the player.

but you can't give or get advice on pups and have ppl see and hear your setup/playing, so it's irrelevant. we just look for advice on which pups are better,diff characteristics we like and then risk it..

jjensson · #15 06-07-2006, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibanez2005

You guys seem to forget that tone also has alot to do with your amp, effects chain and most importantly, the player.

Very true, but a pickup has some basic characteristics that cannot be eliminated by a normal amp. Maybe a virtual amp can do it ;-)

I mean, an Evo will always sound harsher than a Breed, in every amp. OTOH play the Evo through a super warm amp and it will sound dull/rigid/lifeless. This is my understanding of the topic. But i'm still learning, so i'm open for corrections.

When one searches for a certain tone, he should start with the tone-generating device (guitar, including pick+strings+pickups+wood+contstruction etc), then go test many many cables

And finally getting the right amp and tubes and cabinets and speakers...

The difficult part is that the parts of the whole system interact and the result can often be unpredictable. For people with a small budget this is frustrating.

jj