Pickups debate - old technology

[shredder87_rob]

It amazes me how much technology has moved on over the last half century, yet with guitars, pretty much the same technology is used today as from when the likes of Leo Fender was messing around in his tool shed 50+ years ago.

I've been playing guitar for around 15 years now, and only got round to changing the pickups recently. Being a novice I was completely clueless as to whether I needed 2/4 wire conductor, F spacing, active/passive, what sound I wanted, what wire is connected to what, coil splitting etc, and the list goes on..... No wonder why alot a people don't bother cos it's a lot of hassle. And to be honest my guitar would still be in pieces, or I would have had to pay a shop to install the new pickups, if it wasn't for the help & advice I got from these forums.

Anyway, enough ranting. My question is why can't they make pickups easier to install ? Why can't they be as simple as pushing in a lightbulb ? When you go and buy a lightbulb, all you have to worry about is whether to get a push in, or screw in one. When you push the lighbulb in and it touches the connecters, it works, simple ! I'm sure they could make pickups the same way ?

I'm sure some people reading this will debate that wiring is better 'cos it gives you various options, like coil splitting/tapping/reversing etc, but it can't be that difficult to make a new design where you had push-in jumpers or connectors in order to choose your preferred option. I know for example if you've got a set of EMG's you can swap the neck/bridge pickups without taking them out as they have connecters you just swap round.

I expect someone has already made guitars that can do this, but the biggest hurdle to overcome would be to get all guitar manufactorers to build their guitars to incorporate the new design.

Let's face it, buying new pickups is a bit of a lottery. How many times have you read rave reviews or been recommended some by a friend, only to be a bit dissapointed when you realise they don't sound quite like you wanted on your guitar. You can hardly try before you buy !

Just imagine the possibilties of just being able to slot-in the new pickups, ideally from the back of the guitar to avoid having to take off the strings.
Firstly, I think the sale of pickups would increase 50+fold. Imagine taking your favorite guitar, you could sound like Satriani on one day, and after a quick swap, sound like Hendrix the next day !

You would also have the luxury of going into a guitar shop and trying out an array of pickups that suit YOUR ears & YOUR guitar.

Oh well, we can only dream on !

[Scali]

Well, personally I think people who feel the need to change their pickups that often, should concentrate more on their own playing, and less on their equipment.
I'm only replacing the pickups on one of my guitars because my neck-humbucker is broken.
I'll expect the pickups to be in the guitar at least 10 years again, just like the first set were.
So I won't require any options for quick pickup changes during most of the life of the guitar... and it would be a shame to give up some of the tone, and make the guitar more expensive, just because some people can't figure out that it's you who decides what the guitar sounds like, not the pickups.

[Batchimp RG]

Originally Posted by Scali

and it would be a shame to give up some of the tone, and make the guitar more expensive, just because some people can't figure out that it's you who decides what the guitar sounds like, not the pickups.

So do you think there should be one or two standard pickups available and that too much choice is not good?

[Demiurge]

It would be nice if every piece of electronics had little plugs, but I think the connections are ultimately sturdier if soldered. Frankly, if you can play guitar, you can use a soldering iron and read a rudimentary wiring diagram (or adjust one's truss rod by themselves without fear!). I usually swap out the pickups of my guitars about once during their "lifetime" with me, and it's usually just to get rid of microphonic or muddy stocks. As far as having access to a more vast tonal pallette, well, that's why you buy multiple guitars, dammit!

There are companies that make guitars with modular pickups and wiring (the names of the makers escape me), but I honestly don't see that technology being dramatically useful or worth the boutique prices.

[Jemwielder]

I agree with the idea of focusing on your playing more. You'd be surprised how much better your tone gets when you just focus on your technique.

[Scali]

Originally Posted by Chimp

So do you think there should be one or two standard pickups available and that too much choice is not good?

No, but generally, at least on high-end guitars, the stock pickups are chosen or even designed in order to get the most out of the guitar's natural wood tone.
There's generally little reason to change such pickups, in my opinion. And even if you do want to change them, at least you have a reference, so finding new pickups with a bit more output, bit smoother high-end, or whatever... shouldn't be hard.

As for a low-end guitar, well you can just look at what similar high-end guitars use for pickups, and go from there. So I agree with what Demiurge says... If the stock pickups need replacing for some reason (other than "I don't sound the way I want to", because that generally means you either bought the wrong guitar, or you need guitar lessons, not new pickups), then you can do that, but you only have to do it once in the lifetime of the guitar really.
I have one Epiphone Les Paul, whose stock pickups were quite microphonic and all.. so I just got a set of Gibsons that some erm... nevermind... took out of his Gibson Les Paul Custom. And it now sounds exactly like a stock Gibson Les Paul... which is really exactly how a Les Paul should sound.

My RG570CT was reasonably high-end, and although it didn't have 'brand' pickups, the standard V7-S1-V8 were of excellent quality, and had a very pleasant and detailed tone, which was a great match for the natural tone of its alder+maple body. In fact, I'd say they're possibly even better quality than the Gibsons, they're slightly less noisy (while having slightly more output even). I would never have changed them if the neck pickup wouldn't have died.

I think a good amp is way more important than pickups... A good amp brings out a lot more detail in the sound of your pickups. When I see people here wasting hundreds of dollars on pickups while they're playing through a Boss GT-6 or a ValveState amp... I dunno... what's the point? Get a good amp, probably does more good for your tone than trying all these expensive pickups, which really don't differ all that much. A good amp with enough gain and proper tone controls can make up for the difference in pickups for a large part. Heck, the better my amps became, the less gain I used... And I'd roll down the volume more often... so why go for these hot pickups? I think these hot pickups were mainly created in the day when players demanded more gain from their amps. These days there's often too much gain on amps, rather than too little, so these pickups no longer make sense.

[waylay00]

Originally Posted by shredder87_rob

It amazes me how much technology has moved on over the last half century, yet with guitars, pretty much the same technology is used today as from when the likes of Leo Fender was messing around in his tool shed 50+ years ago.

I've been playing guitar for around 15 years now, and only got round to changing the pickups recently. Being a novice I was completely clueless as to whether I needed 2/4 wire conductor, F spacing, active/passive, what sound I wanted, what wire is connected to what, coil splitting etc, and the list goes on..... No wonder why alot a people don't bother cos it's a lot of hassle. And to be honest my guitar would still be in pieces, or I would have had to pay a shop to install the new pickups, if it wasn't for the help & advice I got from these forums.

Anyway, enough ranting. My question is why can't they make pickups easier to install ? Why can't they be as simple as pushing in a lightbulb ? When you go and buy a lightbulb, all you have to worry about is whether to get a push in, or screw in one. When you push the lighbulb in and it touches the connecters, it works, simple ! I'm sure they could make pickups the same way ?

I'm sure some people reading this will debate that wiring is better 'cos it gives you various options, like coil splitting/tapping/reversing etc, but it can't be that difficult to make a new design where you had push-in jumpers or connectors in order to choose your preferred option. I know for example if you've got a set of EMG's you can swap the neck/bridge pickups without taking them out as they have connecters you just swap round.

I expect someone has already made guitars that can do this, but the biggest hurdle to overcome would be to get all guitar manufactorers to build their guitars to incorporate the new design.

Let's face it, buying new pickups is a bit of a lottery. How many times have you read rave reviews or been recommended some by a friend, only to be a bit dissapointed when you realise they don't sound quite like you wanted on your guitar. You can hardly try before you buy !

Just imagine the possibilties of just being able to slot-in the new pickups, ideally from the back of the guitar to avoid having to take off the strings.
Firstly, I think the sale of pickups would increase 50+fold. Imagine taking your favorite guitar, you could sound like Satriani on one day, and after a quick swap, sound like Hendrix the next day !

You would also have the luxury of going into a guitar shop and trying out an array of pickups that suit YOUR ears & YOUR guitar.

Oh well, we can only dream on !

You know, a friend of mine and I were discussing this earlier. If any of you have ever fooled around with building computers, you probably know that all connections are usually made between plastic "Molex" connectors, so that you just snap the two leads together.

Anyways, we were discussing why this has not been done with guitar electronics. If Molex connectors are good enough for computers, then they should definitely be good enough for guitars.

[Dee]

Originally Posted by shredder87_rob

Anyway, enough ranting. My question is why can't they make pickups easier to install ? Why can't they be as simple as pushing in a lightbulb ? When you go and buy a lightbulb, all you have to worry about is whether to get a push in, or screw in one. When you push the lighbulb in and it touches the connecters, it works, simple ! I'm sure they could make pickups the same way ?

I'm sure some people reading this will debate that wiring is better 'cos it gives you various options, like coil splitting/tapping/reversing etc, but it can't be that difficult to make a new design where you had push-in jumpers or connectors in order to choose your preferred option. I know for example if you've got a set of EMG's you can swap the neck/bridge pickups without taking them out as they have connecters you just swap round.

I was recently thinking about a solder-free way of doing it where you could just push the wires onto connection points on a kind of circuit board. All you'd need is some little connectors on the end of each wire, slot them onto some points on the board and off you go. Would be sort of like fitting a stylus to a tonearm, the wires just push on.

EDIT: I replied before reading Waylay's post above. That's also a similar idea. Seems we are all thinking alike, apart from the killjoy's...

Originally Posted by Jemwielder

I agree with the idea of focusing on your playing more. You'd be surprised how much better your tone gets when you just focus on your technique.

Damn, what is it with some of you guys? I've been playing for 27 years or more and I think it's a good idea. Do you think I'm a bad player or something just because of this? Get real!

[Dee]

Originally Posted by Scali

No, but generally, at least on high-end guitars, the stock pickups are chosen or even designed in order to get the most out of the guitar's natural wood tone.
There's generally little reason to change such pickups, in my opinion. And even if you do want to change them, at least you have a reference, so finding new pickups with a bit more output, bit smoother high-end, or whatever... shouldn't be hard.

As for a low-end guitar, well you can just look at what similar high-end guitars use for pickups, and go from there. So I agree with what Demiurge says... If the stock pickups need replacing for some reason (other than "I don't sound the way I want to", because that generally means you either bought the wrong guitar, or you need guitar lessons, not new pickups), then you can do that, but you only have to do it once in the lifetime of the guitar really.
I have one Epiphone Les Paul, whose stock pickups were quite microphonic and all.. so I just got a set of Gibsons that some erm... nevermind... took out of his Gibson Les Paul Custom. And it now sounds exactly like a stock Gibson Les Paul... which is really exactly how a Les Paul should sound.

My RG570CT was reasonably high-end, and although it didn't have 'brand' pickups, the standard V7-S1-V8 were of excellent quality, and had a very pleasant and detailed tone, which was a great match for the natural tone of its alder+maple body. In fact, I'd say they're possibly even better quality than the Gibsons, they're slightly less noisy (while having slightly more output even). I would never have changed them if the neck pickup wouldn't have died.

I think a good amp is way more important than pickups... A good amp brings out a lot more detail in the sound of your pickups. When I see people here wasting hundreds of dollars on pickups while they're playing through a Boss GT-6 or a ValveState amp... I dunno... what's the point? Get a good amp, probably does more good for your tone than trying all these expensive pickups, which really don't differ all that much. A good amp with enough gain and proper tone controls can make up for the difference in pickups for a large part. Heck, the better my amps became, the less gain I used... And I'd roll down the volume more often... so why go for these hot pickups? I think these hot pickups were mainly created in the day when players demanded more gain from their amps. These days there's often too much gain on amps, rather than too little, so these pickups no longer make sense.

Dude, quit moralizing! How can you compare a $60 pickup to "a good amp" that no doubt costs WAY MORE than a pickup? Or "how a Les Paul "should" sound? People like to customize their gear for their needs. Personally I'd like a Les Paul with a Floyd bridge and some different humbuckers than stock ones. Is there something wrong with me?

Honestly, I hope you don't take offense but I think you are talking nonsense.

[Scali]

Originally Posted by Dee

Dude, quit moralizing! How can you compare a $60 pickup to "a good amp" that no doubt costs WAY MORE than a pickup?

Simple: You need 2 or 3 pickups in most guitars.
So that's $120 to $180 for each guitar.
And if you think you need new pickups everytime you want a slightly different sound, or if you simply own multiple guitars, then after 2 or 3 changes it all adds up to a good amount to buy a decent amp from.
And if you had the good amp in the first place, you may never have wanted to change your pickups...

Originally Posted by Dee

Or "how a Les Paul "should" sound? People like to customize their gear for their needs. Personally I'd like a Les Paul with a Floyd bridge and some different humbuckers than stock ones. Is there something wrong with me?

Probably yea. I mean, there's probably plenty of guitars that do exactly what you want, straight out of the case. They're just not made by Gibson. I know ESP builds plenty of Les Paul models with floyd bridges, and all sorts of woods and pickup combinations.
Besides, I wasn't talking about customizing, I was talking about people who constantly change their gear, trying to find that ultimate tone, but never getting there. They're looking in the wrong place.

Originally Posted by Dee

Honestly, I hope you don't take offense but I think you are talking nonsense.

Well I think I have an excellent point, that makes perfect sense. Just because you don't agree, doesn't mean I'm talking nonsense.

[RSVampire]

Guitars are like Cars

Cars has stayed pretty much the same (except for the gobs of gadgets stuffed inside now). The motor has stayed pretty much the same with some slight modifications over the years. Fuel injection, displacement on demand, V-Tec etc.

Same with pickups, they've stayed pretty much the same except for a new modifications. Air technology, Virtual Vintage, Active systems, Antiquity series, Tuned Coils etc.

[Dee]

Originally Posted by Scali

Simple: You need 2 or 3 pickups in most guitars.
So that's $120 to $180 for each guitar.
And if you think you need new pickups everytime you want a slightly different sound, or if you simply own multiple guitars, then after 2 or 3 changes it all adds up to a good amount to buy a decent amp from.
And if you had the good amp in the first place, you may never have wanted to change your pickups...



Probably yea. I mean, there's probably plenty of guitars that do exactly what you want, straight out of the case. They're just not made by Gibson. I know ESP builds plenty of Les Paul models with floyd bridges, and all sorts of woods and pickup combinations.
Besides, I wasn't talking about customizing, I was talking about people who constantly change their gear, trying to find that ultimate tone, but never getting there. They're looking in the wrong place.

Well I think I have an excellent point, that makes perfect sense. Just because you don't agree, doesn't mean I'm talking nonsense.

You're missing the point of the thread. We were talking about ways of installing pickups, but more specifically, ways to make it easier for the average person. Even if you change your pickups only once, it makes sense to have a system like one of those we suggested above.

I can't be bothered to argue anyway. No one was talking about searching for years for "the ultimate tone" and never being happy. Guitarists are always so stuck in their ways. It's boring as hell, and I welcome a little innovation sometimes, otherwise we'd all be sat here playing stock Les Paul's and there would be no Jemsite.

For the record, I currently own ONE broken guitar. It has NO pickups in it, but I still play the s*** out of it. I own a modeler amp which I cannot even use because of this reason. I've had amps, I've had good tube amps, some decent gear, but it was all sold for debts.

[Scali]

Originally Posted by Dee

You're missing the point of the thread. We were talking about ways of installing pickups, but more specifically, ways to make it easier for the average person. Even if you change your pickups only once, it makes sense to have a system like one of those we suggested above.

Sure, but as I say, it may not be interesting in terms of added cost, or sacrifices that have to be made to the tone (like having to cut through the body so the pickups can be inserted from the bottom).
I think EMG has a nice compromise though. You have to buy everything from them basically, but it isn't that much more expensive than normal stuff... once you buy it, you can just put in other EMGs without any soldering.

Originally Posted by Dee

I can't be bothered to argue anyway. No one was talking about searching for years for "the ultimate tone" and never being happy. Guitarists are always so stuck in their ways. It's boring as hell, and I welcome a little innovation sometimes, otherwise we'd all be sat here playing stock Les Paul's and there would be no Jemsite.

Sure, I love innovative guitars, but that's different from taking a guitar, and sticking pickups in it at random, hoping to get lucky.
I think pickups are the last thing you should do (assuming they're decent stock pickups, not ultra-cheap microphonic and muddy crap, obviously... but that's another story... perhaps you should buy a better guitar altogether).
Better guitars, better amps, better effect modules etc, and obviously your playing technique, they all give you more ways to modify your tone and make you sound better than a new set of pickups. That's the way I see it anyway.

[sick-boy]

I think the problem with the pickup system you're talking about isn't with the system itself, but with the purist. I think a lot of players view things like that as a novelty. So naturally, most guitar companies wouldn't waste their time with something that they think a lot of players would reject.
Personally I don't think it sounds like that bad of an idea.

It amazes me how much technology has moved on over the last half century, yet with guitars, pretty much the same technology is used today as from when the likes of Leo Fender was messing around in his tool shed 50+ years ago.

As far as the first part of the original post goes, I have to disagree.
I think in since we are in the Digital Age, where computers advance at such a rapid pace, we expect everything else to advance that fast. I think guitars have come a long way.
Think about it:
Better pickups, longer lasting paint, locking tuners, locking trems, Graphite parts, active pickups, guitar tuners, cheaper recording gear, piezo, etc.

[Scali]

Originally Posted by sick-boy

Better pickups, longer lasting paint, locking tuners, locking trems, Graphite parts, active pickups, guitar tuners, cheaper recording gear, piezo, etc.

Indeed, it's actually the guitarists that hold the technology back, not the other way around.
A lot of guitarists are purists who prefer everything from the 50s or 60s, and think a Steinberger is a complete piece of trash. There's only a small market for them.
Funny though... the Stratocaster was once about as revolutionary as the Steinberger was in its day (okay, the telecaster already went before it... but still, compare the sound of an archtop guitar to that of a solidbody, especially a Fender... and then the weird tremolo, and all these pickups... and bolt-on necks!?).

I personally love all these new technologies that make life easier for the guitarist. I'm a fan of guitars like the Steinberger, the Catalyst, Parker etc... But I know very well that we're a small minority.

I also use modeling for recording these days... I do have an 'old' tube amp, and I'm quite happy with its sound... but setting it up for recording with a mic and all... it's quite troublesome, and inconsistent aswell... You need to get everything right, and sometimes the mic-placement is just a tad off, or you didn't have the volume or gain exactly the way you had it last time, etc.
With my modeler I can just call up my exact settings everytime, and it's always good. A lot of people actually think it sounds better, because they don't really hear the difference with my real amp, but they do hear that the recording is very well-balanced, and the guitar sits neatly in the mix, without any noise or overly processed stuff.