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Palestine.....why?

4K views 53 replies 18 participants last post by  cerealk 
#1 ·
What ever yout stance and knowledge of Israel & Palestine conflict/history. Lets look at a snapshot of what's currently going on. Israel, if they really wanted, could hand the Palestinians their butts without skipping a beat. They have the technology, but not the will. Palestinians must know this. So they keep lobbing ineffective missles into Israel. It's like poking a dog with a stick. If Palestine wants a war, and has Iran backing of weapons, why don't they just jump in with both feet and throw everything they got. I'm not debating sides here. Just technique. What do you think Palestine is thinking each time they poke the dog with the stick? I know they have religious problems with each other. But darn it. They could live in peace if they just chilled and made the best of it. But if they can't chill, and want all the land. Then why not assemble the troops and march in and take it?

That said. (probably incorrectly) And without having to take a side. What would you do if you were Palestinian General in charge of achieving your goals? What would you do if you were an Isreal General?

Everytime I hear another news story, seems daily, about another missle into Israel. I wonder, what are they doing? Either throw down and get it over with. Or walk away from the fight.

I know we have at least one guy here from Isreal. If your reading this. What do you think Isreal should do?
 
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#4 ·
not to be offensive..but look at palistine
look at who runs it
look at whom is on the opposing side


the people running the conflict on palesines side, and thier leaders arent very intelligent at all

i would say its like
a RED ball would roll from palestine to israel, and the israelies would say wow what a nice RED ball, and the palestines would say GIVE US THAT BLUE BALL BACK OR ITS WAR

misguided, misleaded, worthless attempt, it should have a beurocratic war not a civil war....but its not like either side is equaly intelligent, one side has developed, and the other side is still sitting in the gutter becasue thier leaders do not reinstate progress for thier country...thus being jelous, and fighting, like when one kid has a popsicle, and his little brother gets jelous

something like that
 
#6 ·
not to be offensive..but look at palistine
look at who runs it
look at whom is on the opposing side

the people running the conflict on palesines side, and thier leaders arent very intelligent at all

i would say its like
a RED ball would roll from palestine to israel, and the israelies would say wow what a nice RED ball, and the palestines would say GIVE US THAT BLUE BALL BACK OR ITS WAR

misguided, misleaded, worthless attempt, it should have a beurocratic war not a civil war....but its not like either side is equaly intelligent, one side has developed, and the other side is still sitting in the gutter becasue thier leaders do not reinstate progress for thier country...thus being jelous, and fighting, like when one kid has a popsicle, and his little brother gets jelous

something like that
I know what you mean but let's try to avoid angry responds like this to avoid locking this thread. I feel like that it is somewhat important to keep it running just to talk. I guess that since this is a world wide furom there are some muslim members as well on this furom and I'll be happy to interact with them as well.

Avi
 
#5 ·
ok,
I'm not gonna state any political point of view or give any suggestions, just try to tell things as they are. Also I want to say that I don't live near any of the places that are bordering with the palestine authority so my every day life is not affected at all.
Darin, you are right when you say Israel doesn't have the will to renter the teritories we already evacuated for many reasons. Even the army is not interested in doing that. one reason is that these are very dense populated areas and it is close to impossible to not hurt innocent people.
on the other side the rockets that are being fired into Israel's teritory are not as useless as you think. They effect every day life and moral of the people that live next to the gaza strip. and people have been killed and wounded by those rockets. A few weeks ago a kid lost his leg, and another kid almost lost an arm from a shred of a rocket. those who can left those places and moved closer to the center of Israel. those who can't stayed, and the psychological effect on them is serious. a lot of buisness owners are fighting to stay open just to make a stand. Theirs a new movment in Israel organizing groups of people every friday from the center of Israel that drive to sderot and the kibutzim around here and make all the weekend shopping in order to show their support.
Now I'm not saying that Israel is free of blame in this situation. Before Israel completely evacuated the gaza strip the former palestine government asked us to coordinate the evacuation with them, but since our previous prime minister (ariel sharon) had very little faith in them he decided that it is going to be a one sided move and they can do what ever they want. a lot of people including the current Israeli government admit that it was a mistake.
I can keep writing for hours so in conclusion I'll just say that it is a very complicated situation. Israel can't and don't want to ignore worldwide opinion and palestine doesn't realy care until Israel army makes an attack and then they cry out to the world that Israel is out to destroy and kill them all.
Theres a lot of suspicion between sides. as there are negative elements among the palestine people there are the same negative elements in the Israeli society that will do anything in there abilty to fail any chance of peace (including killing the prime minister if you remember what happened to Itzhak Rabin) so... funny enough both of them consists of religious people, jewish and muslims.
It's quite despairing for people in both sides that just want to live their life in peace.
That was alot of spell checking on my behalf so I'll stop now and if any of you boys and girls wanna ask something I'll be happy to answer.
 
#7 ·
I'm not trying to debate who's right or wrong here. Just the methods they are using to achieve their goals. Think of your self as being in charge. If you are Palestinian, what would you do to achieve your goals? I just don't understand this approach they are taking. Maybe it's brilliance hidden behind what seems to be a lack of will.

So, play army general and make a play. Isreal is being very patient. They aren't going away and they have Palestine lobbing missles in all the time. What would you do if your neighbor was doing that?

Don't get involved in political/religious debate. Just theoretical military tactics for each side. I say, get it on and get it over with. When the dust settles, winner gets the land. Or, shake hands and agree to be neighbors.
 
#8 · (Edited)
nonono, im not angry, i do respect muslims and people all to themselves. im not telling someone they are wrong...but there clearly are people who are involved with this fiasco who arent very intelligent, who have power and whom are very vain. im not talking about the board members here, im talking about he people unjust bombing, and fighting over something that doesnt belong to them anymore

take desert storm
true story i may add
back in the day iraq not only sold us the land, but we paied them for every bit of oil and resources we took, kinda like a tax
we developed the land, installed our resources, we basicaly made the wells self sufficient to operate, with or without people. we as the us, developed and invested out equipement, machinery and time and knowledge.

iraw then saw what WE did, and claimed something was holy when it wasnt, just a ploy. they wanted us to develope it, and then for them to take over...sorry...you know its like if i wanted a pizza, and i go to littel ceasars and pay for it, then i want them to make me a pizaa, but then steal the whole pizzaria

long story short, to this day there is only half the fires put out in iraq, where americans are still fighting to put them out, the iraqis blew up ten thousand wells and sumps that belonged to us....for what, becasue they got envious...why id they spend all thier money on golden ak47's, im sure that money could have went to he people and to develop thier country

theres no reason why palestine should be in powstruck envireoment with activists and evildo'ers whom are in the control

strip them of thier power, theres no reason why unrashionable people based on envy and vain should be in power destroying peoples lives
 
#9 ·
its a joke, really what are they fighting for a tax extension into land

i mean seriously

cant sobody just stop em....irsael has developed since moses led his poeple, what has palestine done....leached off israel for years and now wants part of its developed region?? i mean i have family that lives there in israel, some for buissness and on grand mother...the point being its all a joke, they are fighting for pointless reasons. pointless i say!!!
 
#10 ·
barbarelaxe, thanks for your reaponse and contributing to the discussion.

Sorry about the comment about missles being ineffective. I'm not trying to minimalize the impact on human lives. That is tragic. I don't think we get to feel the impact at that level from our network media. Also, I guess I mean ineffctive in that it's not doing anythiing more than you said. I believe Palestine wants all of Israel land. How are these "smallish" events helping them.

A second question. When Isreal gives up land, aren't there houses there? What happens to the homeonwers? Do they get reimbursed financially when they leave their house? Who gets it?
 
#11 ·
I say, get it on and get it over with. When the dust settles, winner gets the land. Or, shake hands and agree to be neighbors.
You are forgetting Israel already won when those teritories were taken in wars that took place from the day Israel declared independence in 1948 until 1970. a few more points. Israel did not conquer those lands from plestine. They were considered either Egyptian or Jordanian teritories. when Israel negotiated the peace agreament with Egypt, we asked them to take the gaza strip as well together with the whole sinai desert because it was theirs to begin with, but they said we can keep it to ourselves.
 
#13 ·
So tough to keep threads from getting off track. Please guys. You all know how threads get locked. There is reasonable debate and discussion. And then there is accusations and name calling. One leads to bans and thread closures.

Proper debate can persuade people without arguing.
 
#21 ·
You are right in regards of who's fault it is but I'm here only to explain and trying not to justify my country or anything like that.

here is a short quute from an opinion column that was published a few months ago in one of the weekend news papers:

"What Did the Palestinians Do with Their 'Marshall Plan'? - Ben-Dror Yamini

"The Palestinians have bought themselves a place of honor on the list of unfortunates in the world. A well-oiled public relations campaign has turned them into a nation of victims. Misery pays. One of the countries hated by the Palestinians the most, the United States, has since 1993 helped them more than any other nation in the world, according to World Bank figures. From 1994 to 2004, the U.S. provided the Palestinians with $1.3 billion, the EU $1.1 billion, and Japan $530 million. In addition to direct aid, the U.S. is also the largest contributor to UNRWA, the UN agency for Palestinian refugees.

"In 1992, the Palestinian per capita GDP was $2,683 per person. If there had not been terror, the Palestinian economy could have grown during the 1990s into one of the leaders in the Middle East. The money was used for three major purposes: perpetuation of the refugees as victims, purchase of weapons and explosives, and corruption. Opportunities to achieve independence and prosperity were rejected for the ultimate goal: the removal of Israel from the map.

"In relation to their numbers, the Palestinians have received more aid than provided by the Marshall Plan after World War II. Since the Oslo agreements, the Palestinians in the territories have received $5.5 billion, or $1,300 per person. By comparison, in the Marshall plan, each European enjoyed only $273 (in today's numbers). Above all, the guilt lies with those who gave these huge sums without having the Palestinians undergo a period of recovery from their futile dreams of the destruction of Israel. The result is, primarily, the continued destruction of Palestinian society. (Maariv-Hebrew, 5Jan[07])" (Source: Daily Alert, January 8, 2007)
 
#17 ·
To be honest, I don't see an end to this in the near future. on one side palestine makes unreasonable demands that Israel can't agree to like permitting all plestinian families to return to their homes in haifa and tel-aviv for example after they ran away in 1948. on the other side theres not one political figure here in Israel that can gain enough public support to make more drastic moves in terms of evacuating more territories and remove settelments. they are all to much in love with their lether chairs and prefer to keep things as they are.
 
#19 ·
i dont understand why this is even still a issue

it seems that most of these demands and issues are all VAIN, and are all selfish beyond resonable allowances

is there a solid reason why this cant just end?? people can move on and develop thier own country, live on thier own, and use the money to help thier people rather sending missles and bombs over

this sounds like a huge joke to me
i mena im not from there, and i have family whos there right now...but seriously now, if i sold my home in 1948, what give me the righ to get it back all of a sudden...just like if i ran away, so i ran away....make a better life enlsewhere. i know to me it seems like childish and nonsense..completely, it seems like they should drave a border and a huge wal and people should keep to themselves, allow each contry thier own privacy and develop...and maybe after palestine develops into a mature country, with more resonable and beurocratic standpoints they can negotiate and work out thier problems, but it just seems like the fithting is useless and pointles, and mostly drwan on by currupt and HORRIBLE leaders whom are using reasons like....1948, tey ran away, not they want thier homes back.....like does this reason even matter...in court if you were to take this same instance to a judge, what would he say....does anyone agree this is basicly dragged out old news...and this should just be ended by the UN
 
#23 ·
Well, you aren't just going to take Muslim land and get away with it. It's in the Qu'ran and they're pretty hardcore about maintaining their territorial integrity. Israel should really have been formed in Germany, to punish it for WWII. Instead, the rest of the world just agreed to take the land from palestinians and say that it now belongs to a new sovereign nation and those who disagree should GTFO and STFU. It doesn't really hit home until you translate this to your own soil. Let's say for the sake of argument that the US was weak, and a number of other countries decided to take away California and give it to Iraq. That would stir some discontent, no? Consider how much worse it would be if the Bible had some hard rules in it about protecting motherland, and 90% of the population was very religious.

My point is, Palestinians would have a very hard time even if they wanted to be OK with it. And they're most certainly not OK with it. This will drag on forever, and not because Israel is "patient". There are plenty of Muslim nations with their fingers on the trigger. They don't want a full-scale war, but they'll have to do it in case there's a full blown attack on Palestine.
 
#27 ·
Israel should really have been formed in Germany, to punish it for WWII. .
That is kind of funny. I don't know if you are aware of it but before Israel was formed in the middle east there was a serious offer to give the jewish people land in africe where Uganda is these days, in this offer was debated in the zionist council in vienna.
This will go on for a long time because the palestinian are not willing to move an inch from some of their unreasonable demands and because theres not one politician that is brave enough to make drastic moves to show he is serious in regards to achieving peace. and when I say peace I don't mean by wiping out all living palestinians, but by returning to what is known as the green line border from 1967.
 
#24 ·
theres no holy written testament other than word of mouth and people writting it themselves

holy land, was a term UNKNOWN BEFORE the 50's, wich was led to desert storm, also a term used to disengrate he fact that developed land, was once not holly and now all of it sudden is

the land the palestinians call holy was actually in the area now known as egypt, there was no origional palestinian standpoint in israel, the only reason why they were there to beign with was to escape the realms of egypt, NOT PUTTING UP WITH THIER CRAP

so they left and went to israel...and then fleed durring the 50's...still to this day they have palestine...what else do they want...they are noname nation (figure of speech) with no international developement, in fact they have subseeded in becomeing lower than most nations becasue they have not developed...africa....had less financial excortion to begin with, and look, they are developing just fine, and not hating the english for all they did....and they have had holy tribes before palestine knew how to wipe thier butt!
 
#44 ·
What the whole thing boils down to is a fight over land that has existed for many centuries and it isn't going to stop anytime soon.

Jimmy:smile:
Certainly a contributing factor here is the Arab League's decision to deny citizernship to Palestinians. NO Palestinian can get citizenship in any Arab country, no matter how long they've lived there, or even if they've been born in that other country. It forces refugee status ont he Palestinians no matter where they happen to be for the rest of eternity. This was a purely political move done to make sure Israel didn't ever get a moment's peace. It worked, and continues to work.
 
#31 ·
For risk of upsetting people or getting this thread closed, I apologise in advance, but I'm going to throw my hat in the ring.

There has been, for thousands of years, distrust between the Jews and Muslims. The Koran itself talks of the war between the two. Now, I haven't read the entire Koran, but parts I have read do specifically talk about forcing people (mainly Jews at the time in Medina & Mecca) to convert to Islam, which is enough to get anyones back up, right? I'm mean that is unacceptable behaviour.

However, at the end of WWII, to then take land from Muslims, and populate with those of the Jewish faith, isn't that poking a dog with a stick? What did they think was gonna happen? That was a stupid decision on the worlds part.

Darin, if I'm correct, I think your purpose of the thread was to say, what would you do to solve the current crisis. Either go to war or wave the white flag? Unfortunately, this is a situation where neither is possible. Going to war would without question bring on a WWIII (if Israel started a war, Iran and other Arab states would come to the defence of Palestine, and the US and probably other western countries would come to defend Israel). Surrendering the land to Israel would likely do the same (Arab countries wouldn't let that happen because in their eyes Israel shouldn't be there to begin, and they would start a war with Israel etc). We should be thankful that neither of these outcomes have taken place.
 
#35 ·
Israel has expressed the will to compromize and evacuate what is known as the occupied territories and let the palestinian people establish their own country. off course there are certain political movments in Israel that does not agree to move an inch but it has been proven in the past that if the government makes a true decision that it will be done.
On the palestinian side a will to compromize has also been expressed in the but know with the new government in gaza that states it will never acknowledge Israel existence it is a problem for Israel to evacuate any more teritories.
the palestinians don't think that what they are doing is pointless. They think they will wear Israel out this way and we will start leaving Israel on our own. They keep saying they are willing to die until the last one in a war against Israel and that Israel is week because they hold every life precious.
They gained a lot of confidence from what happened in lebanon 2 years ago and they recieve constant support from Iran in money, weapons and military knowledge.
 
#39 ·
Well, the weather in Israel is very nice :lol: . No one is pretending to solve the conflict. Darin opened this thread and I felt like giving out some info on it.
I clearly stated that I'll try the best I can not to be political or express my point of view.
The fact that this thread is not locked yet (glen and jim were online up untill a few minutes ago and I'm sure they did not miss this thread) show that we are conducting are selves in a nice and polite manner.
 
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