Software..um.."sharing, lending, borrowing, downloading"

[Mike P]

I find civil debate... stumping for your side, view, what have you, interesting sometimes. If done correctly, everyone involved, watching and/or participating, can learn from each other. A lot of times one can get exposed to issues they had not previously been exposed to - things they were not previously aware of. It can give one something to consider.

Morality - It varies from country to country, culture to culture, even from household to household. To insert minutia, it often varies within a single household where more than one person resides. I have a philosophy about morality, in general that I live by - A code of conduct, if you will. ...... Morality, in general and in most cases, is MOSTLY common sense. However, I do not expect my morality to rub off on anyone/everyone else. Just because I "know" I'm right, doesn't always make it right for me to point it out or to act on it. Sometimes it's better to just let it go... "pick and choose your battles" comes to mind. Judge not less you be judged also comes to mind. Those that live in glass houses...... You get the point. My moral compass points primarily North. However, I am NOT perfect - not without fault.

All that said, I do NOT buy, not even for one second, that pointing to corporate greed as a reason or an excuse to steal as being a valid argument. Pointing to another's bad behavior to justify bad behavior is not a valid reason or a valid argument. It didn't work on our Moms when we were kids. Surely it is not expected to work for us as adults?

[HeavyMetal4Ever]

Originally Posted by callen3615

wow, when did i say that i was BETTER than anyone? Did that come off THAT condescending? I just basically said that I am not a totally immoral person. In no way am i perfect or even close to it. Lets talk sin, i sin everyday, i sin every hour. But all im saying is that i am striving for something better. Sorry I pissed you off, and I hope I don't need that seat your saving.

I got the impression you were saying that because you don't choose to smoke, drink or have sex you believed that made you part of the "higher moral fiber of society". It seemed to me that you were implying that people who choose to do any of those things were below your self proclaimed high level of morality.

If I misunderstood you in any way, overreacted and offended you, I apologise.

[callen3615]

Nope, its ok. Im just stating that I have made certain decisions in life, mostly to refrain from certain things. Thats all. Do I believe that smoking or drinking is bad? No. Do I think its a bad habit? Thats another story

[HeavyMetal4Ever]

Originally Posted by eviltwin

Speeding a crime? sorry but that is plain wrong, speeding is not a felony, it's not even a misdemeanor.

In Australia speeding is a crime. I should have looked into American law before I posed.

Originally Posted by eviltwin

Are you referring to the 8th commandment?

No, I was referring to pride.

I am not posting this to cause more trouble, only to clear up misunderstandings. If my ignorance has caused anyone offence I apologise.

[Davey]

Originally Posted by Mike P

All that said, I do NOT buy, not even for one second, that pointing to corporate greed as a reason or an excuse to steal as being a valid argument. Pointing to another's bad behavior to justify bad behavior is not a valid reason or a valid argument. It didn't work on our Moms when we were kids. Surely it is not expected to work for us as adults?

It's not a valid reason or excuse for doing it, it's just part of the REASON for it happening, not the justification

[eviltwin]

Originally Posted by HeavyMetal4Ever

In Australia speeding is a crime. I should have looked into American law before I posed.

Well that depends on your point of view. Even if speeding is formally classified as a petty crime, labelling the offender as a criminal is overkill, much like calling copyright infringements "piracy". It's become acceptable to the point that offenders have started to take pride in the name. On the other hand labelling a sex offenders as such is a bit too eufemistic for my taste. (perhaps sex criminals sounded 1984-ish ?)

Note that there is not a single mention of either "felony" or "crime" in the Australian Road Rules 2008. The text on speeding specifically mentions "offence" not crime. Nor are these road rules part of Australian Criminal Law (it's probably administrative law)

• Offences and penalties
  
  If a rule (or subrule) creates an offence, this is indicated by the words
  ‘Offence provision.’ Set out in the rule (or subrule). A person who
  breaches the rule (or subrule) commits an offence.
  The penalty for an offence is set by other laws of each jurisdiction.
  Penalties can include a fine and, in some circumstances,
  disqualification from driving.

So speeding makes you an offender not a criminal even if technically the offence constitutes petty crime. Most moving violations (incl speeding in any jursidiction) however are dealt with administratively, no judge, no jury, no criminal record.

No, I was referring to pride.

Do you mean this:

I don't post on forums about how I think i'm better than other people.

implying that you do

See you in hell sinner.

strike two

If I get there first i'll save you a seat.

In my book that constitutes three counts of pride, but you are repenting so I guess it's all good

I am not posting this to cause more trouble, only to clear up misunderstandings. If my ignorance has caused anyone offence I apologise.

Nor am I, in fact I don't think pride is sinful at all, however calling someone sinner is similar to calling someone thief, pirate or criminal (which is probably why Darin started this thread using the words borrowing and lending...) so I like to stick to the economic, philosophical and legal arguments using neutral terms. If you hadn't posted words like sinner and criminal I wouldn't have become involved in this thread.

Software and media companies use these terms to sway the argument in their favour as Daniel Defoe did three centuries ago. It tends to work against them as the public has romantic connotations with piracy, as we did in the 17hundreds. Whether it's the Matrix, Hackers or WarGames, even media companies themselves find profit in glamourising computer offences!

Originally Posted by Ibanez249

It's not a valid reason or excuse for doing it, it's just part of the REASON for it happening, not the justification .

I think I've already shown that comporate greed can be used as a valid justification for
the act of individual private software appropriation without remuneration (how's that for a eufemism?)
under #1, #2 and #5 of my previous post:

1. the "Property is Theft" argument.
2. the disproportionate profit equals Racketeering/Usury argument.
..
5. piracy is allowable, as software companies already include a fee for this.

Whether or not any judge or jury should agree with me is obviously debatable.

[callen3615]

^^Someone watches too much Mattlock.

[Mr.WizardNeck]

I've done it many times. How am I going to get SNES or NES games when they aren't even sold anymore and are hard to come by. Granted, the Wii now has this feature but it didn't before. If you're getting a game not available for download on the Wii then there IS no victim what so ever. ROMs are freely available all over the internet and yet the old cartridges still have many people fighting over them. In a sellers market like that, no problem.

[Mike P]

Originally Posted by Ibanez249

It's not a valid reason or excuse for doing it, it's just part of the REASON for it happening, not the justification

Acknowledged! Very well clarified.

[NaughtyHorse]

Morality aside.
The choice is simple either screw the owner, or get screwed yourself.

You dont mind getting screwed, and feel a bit morally superior to those who chose a different path? thats fine.

And as to the poor game developers who have posted here. I'm sure you'll excuse me for pointing this out but. the worlds most pitrated software developer was until recently run by the worlds richest man. I think you need to find some other excuse for not being a millionaire.

£50 for a game that costs pennies to manufacture and ships millions of copies worldwide. that's (lets do you a favour on distribution and ad costs) £25,000,000 profit for each million units shifted. A top game will move 30 million units. So a couple of years sallary per person in development costs... er..... how many thousands of people does it take to write a game???

Exactly.

The market for digital consumables is changing. in the old days, as consumers, they had us by the balls. now, the other balls are in the vice :-)

... And the horse they rode in on!

Give me an alternative to getting screwed and I will take it. And think about it. It makes life easier for the developers too.
In real life I'm an electrical engineer, and I use a product called Autocad. We pay an annual subscription for the software and get annual updates. Problem is most of the updates don't work and it takes about 3 service packs to get em working. Then the feature is dropped in the next release because of all the negative feedback it generated when it didnt work properly. All this comes about because of stupid deadlines which are driven by the support contract.
Sell me a subscription and drip feed the features as and when they work, and who knows maybe some of your coders will reach the ripe old age of 40 in the low stress environment.

Yes copying someone elses intellectual property is theft, but the question is not that black and white.

[AxeHappy]

How does it only cost pennies to make a game/album/etc...?

[LonePhantom]

Exactly, it's only pennies to press the product. The rest usually costs a fair amount.

[ibz_SA]

If a arist is activly involved in charity and donateing something back to society instead of being a complete idiot then yes I would buy there music I would support their cause, I dont download music these days anyway, but I do ask this question is YOUTUBE wrong? Thats were I go...