Money

[Infinite]

Im well aware that you arent in the music biz for the money... but do you and have you always made enough money to be reletively comfortable? Im sure that Vai pays well, but prior to that, and prior to selling your CD, how did you make enough to fund accomodation, food, GIT fees etc. and without your opportunity to tour with Vai would you still be able to sustain your type of life?...

Im just interested, because im thinking about going to attend GIT or Berklee, but i dont know if I will be able to make enough money either while im there or after i've been... and i know if all im worried about is the money i should become a banker or a accountant, but i couldnt stand that kinda life. I'm just wondering whether i should have music on the side, or music as a full time "job"...

Im probably not expressing myself very clearly.. but im sure theres some kind of message in all that...

Cheers Dave... thanks for taking the time to answer all these queries...

[Soup Kitchen Studios]

Hey... I'm not the Dave you're looking to hear from, but I just got out of Berklee last may (graduated) so maybe I can help answer your question a bit.

It's possible to make a living as a musician, but "comfortable" depends on your definition. Making 70K a year like some of my buddies that went into computer science are doing... well, that isn't so likely as a musician.

Being diverse and easy to get along with will keep money in your pockets... almost more so than being the best player in your scene (especially if you're an a$$). Obviously being good and down to earth is a great combo!

To put it openly... I'm on pace to make a little less than 30k this year from music. Here is what I do.... I do GB (bars, weddings, ect) 3 nights a week in one band, teach ~10 hours a week, do freelance recording projects, and play in an original band. I have an audition to be a "live guitarist" in another band next week! You need to stay busy and organized! No single gig would make enough to pay the bills for me at this point... well maybe teaching, but I personally couldn't do that 30hrs/wk. Teaching is rewarding, but only to a point.. you soon become a babysitter.

There is hope! But if you want money, be a lawyer!!! If you like freetime, marry rich!! Hope my answer helped some.

-Dave

[DavejWeiner]

The real money in music comes from publishing. If you write a ton of stuff and it gets used in various media formats while you retain the publishing rights, you'll do well. That's why the #1 rule in this business is to never give away your publishing.

Records labels used to trick newly signed bands into accepting a large advance in exchange for their publishing. Bands would take it because it was instant gratification and they never saw real money like that. But when that money was all gone, they were broke and didn't understand why. Their songs were hits but only the label was making money b/c they now owned the publishing. Most bands are smarter now.

Without giving away numbers, but to prove the point, I now get royalty checks from various projects I've done. These will come in the rest of my life and if you build up enough royalties, you can make a comfortable yearly income without doing anything. That's a slower but definitely smarter method.

It's not easy. If you want easy, secure money get a 9-5 job. If you're willing to accept an insecure, risky, up & down but more satisfying career, follow your heart and do what you must.

Good luck!

[Infinite]

Thanks a lot guys... I know that if i wanted to be secure, and rich i should take an office job... im just apprehensive, as there seems to be a high (skilled) guitarist to job ratio... ...just one more thing.. did A-level results, or the American equivilant ever help you, or hinder you in anyway?

[BluePill]

Thansk for the Advice.

How do you get started and how do you insure you have "publishing" rights?

Do you have to give yourself a business name?

BLU

[webguy]

Hey BluePill. The publishing thing only comes into play if you are writing your own material. If you or your band are writing your own songs the very first thing you must do is get them copyright protected. You don't want anybody stealing your ideas after all the hard work you did! Once you begin to put this material out to the public via the net or other avenues you need to join a performing rights organization such as BMI,or ASCAP. If you are lucky enough to be be signed to a record label never sign away your publishing rights. You want to keep 100% of your publishing rights to your music. A good music attorney can help you in this area and others when signing a deal with a label. You may be approached by a publisher to sign a publishing agreement. DON'T DO IT! You can do this yourself. Signing with a publisher was a good thing years ago but not today. You want to maintain as much control as you can. Get books and learn how the industry works. Knowledge is power. Talk with other musicians who have made it. Most will give you good advice.

[littlewing777]

Hey, I have a question for Dave, or anyone else who's made it in the music industry.

I'm a sophomore in highschool, and i'm really into music and guitar, and I was planning/thinking about going to Berklee for college. I was wondering, is it hard to get into music schools? I know you have to audition, and I imagine there is alot of competition. Also, i'm curious about getting record deals and the like, I read the information in the posts before this and that was helpful, but i'm still confused. I don't really have a specific question about it, but it would be helpful to know everything you guys have to offer.

Thanks

[invisibo86]

Hehe Music Schools huh? I just went through that process so maybe I can be of a little assistance. First you need to decide what feild of music you want to be into. Do you want to perform, be a teacher, etc. Now according to this will decide A) what kind of auditions you will do and B) how much yer going to have to practice. To if all schools are hard, some schools are easier to get into than others. One school I just sent in a demo of three songs to, one I just showed up and played for the guitar teacher. The rest I had pretty intense ear training and theory exams as well as a quiz session (play all the major seventh chords you know NOW!!) and I wasn't even AT conservatories. But definite advice is get at least at a second grade reading level of music, and for some schools you'll have to pick up classical guitar as well (which has grown on me a lot). Performance auditions are rough, plain and simple. You are going to have to go up against kids who have been STUDYING music since they were 8 or 9 (if you go to a conservatory to audition than 2 or 3). Teaching is slightly easier, though a lot of schools, like Ithaca in NY, have a 5 year double major of performance and education. These are INSANLEY competative but you come out KNOWING your stuff. Now if yer looking for a job, this is pretty good one to have, especially if the school (like Ithaca) focuses on classical, cause this will allow you to have experience in arranging music for choruses etc. If your not sure of what you want to do, than it's best to go to a Liberal Arts School, like BC or BU (which are hard to get into, I'm just using them for examples) which has a good music program and get a BA in music. Once you have that and you've had some time being around studying music you may be a little more apt to decide how you'd like to focus and go to a graduate program. Now the problem with this is you WILL be taking non-musical courses which may take away from practice time, but you also will have gone to a liberal arts school so, god forbid, you have to get an unmusical job for a while, you should be able to get a good job. problems with conservatory-your a little fish in a BIG pond, your going to be one of 100 (in Berklees case I think it's 1000) guitar players. You are going to see a PROFESSIONAL teacher once a month and study mostly with grad students. However when you come out you will have chops out the wazoo! For my plan I'm going the Liberal Arts route and then heading of to conservatory for a masters. This WILL cost some cash, but I think it's well worth it. This is a long answer, but I just spent the last 3 years having the same and now that it's almost over...I'm still having troubles!

[Soup Kitchen Studios]

Music school in the US are all about the cash. If you can pay for it, they will take you. It doesn't matter your skill level. If you know enough about music to be reading this website, then you can get into Berklee (no joke).

There is no audition for Berklee, but most people quit after a year because it's either too tough or conversely, it's holding them back. Berklee worked well for me, although I wish I'd have waited a couple years out of high school, but I am happy with the education I received. It is easy to get plenty of personal contact with any faculty member.

[littlewing777]

hey SKS, about how much was your tuition at berklee, and what did you major in?

[dex]

If you are good enough to get into a music school - you don't need music school.
It's the day and age of "what can you do" not "what do you know" so an A4 sheet of paper telling the world that you paid $200,000 for music education is not going to get you anything, hard work, determination, auditions and "going for it" will get you places.

One term (1 semester) at Berklee costs as much as $20,000 when you add everything up and you'll need 12 terms to collect credits for a degree.
I don't want to discourage anyone but unless you go to Juilliard don't waste your time and money going to a music school.
Just to seal my cynicism I'll make another point - 90% of the musicians that you have in your CD collection never went to music school and of the remaining 10% - 9.99% never graduated......what does that tell you?

ilia

[Soup Kitchen Studios]

A semester at Berklee was about 8.5K when I graduated, not including housing. You need 8 semesters to finish, not 12. A music education is great for some and a waste of money for many. As I said earlier in this thread, I'm very greatful I had a chance to attend Berklee, and I'd do it all again.

btw, I majored in professional music.

[dex]

http://www.berklee.edu/pdf/tuition/tuition.pdf

OK, I overestimated by $50,000 but here are the prices, 4 years for a degree at 3 semesters each......
All I ment was that unlike medicine or law or business you don't really need a formal degree to make it when it comes to the arts.
All you need is hard work, determination and belief.......and by hard work I mean years of dedicated daily practice, cover bands, theory, lessons and some more practice.

My biggest point is that all of the Berklee alumni I've heard of - all of them droped out to pursue their career so you might say they didn't make it because of Berklee but rather inspite of it.
I'm just pointing it out because this and the vai boards are full of 16 year olds who think that by going to Berklee they are magicaly going to become the "New Vai".......

ilia

[BCrowell]

I have to agree that music school is clearly NOT a gaurantee to be in the biz. IMHO, finding a good teacher, who is patient and willing, is just as valuable, and you'll get allot more 1-on-1 time. All it takes is faith in yourself, do your own thing, practice your butt off and get out there NOW! Instead of going to school, start playing with bands in clubs, etc. Get some practical experience, jam, and have fun.

While I'd love to have the time to go to GIT, I realize there is enough info & help on the web, that anyone can accomplish their guitar goals without payin the Greedy Schools.

[Bluestreak]

There's a different mentality when you're in your teens, staring down the barrel of four years of college.

When you're the kid deciding what college to go to, the foremost thought I believe everyone has, and I know I had, was what can I earn when I graduate? Approaching education from that standpoint isn't ideal. However, the fact remains that most of our society's more lucrative careers require college degrees.

I know. I'm a degreed civil site development engineer. I went to engineering school for four of grueling years. I love the job I do, but I absolutely hated engineering school with a passion. I hated everything about engineering school - snooty professors, conservative, eggheaded students, and thousands upon thousands of hours of studying subjects that I have long since forgotten. But... I saw the exercise that college represents as a means to an end. Today, I have a very lucrative career and I enjoy it a great deal. Nothing's better than driving through a neighborhood I built, or attending the grand opening of a new store that's standing because of my work.

Next week, my first correspondence courses with Berklee's online program begins. I'm doing it for my own educational enrichment. I'm doing it because I want to. Not because I expect to make a living with my guitar, not because I expect to be "the next Vai", as someone mused earlier.

Music... music is a passion. It's not something you can go to college to learn. This passion is not something that attending Berklee or GIT will impart upon you. What you really pay for, and so few seem to understand this (which I believe is the root of angst many people have towards schools like Berklee) is that the institution simply creates the environment you need to learn and lays the information at your feet. What you do from there determines your success.

I swore I'd never go back to engineering school for a Masters, and damnit, I'm true to my word. In considering taking classes through Berklee, I struggled with several demons. I listed the positives, negatives, and reasons why I wanted to learn from Berklee. These are the main reasons I came up with to attend Berklee Online:


1.) Teachers. Teachers have an ability to assess progress and guide students in their educational evolution. The teachers at Berklee have generally taught the subject to hundreds, if not thousands, of students and have a sense for what the process of mastering this material is like. This lets the student (me) hone in on what is needed while one is learning, as that need arises. That's something that a non-mentored, self-learning situation doesn't offer.

2.) Teachers already know what the critical concepts you need to grasp are. When you try to learn similar concepts on your own by reading a book or an Internet site, everything is presented as though it is all reasonably equal in importance. If you don't really understand just how critical something is, you may not give it the weight it truly deserves while learning, and as such, you won't learn as much as you could. In a class situation, the teacher will make sure that you have mastered that critical material/concept before moving on. If you don't understand a concept, the teacher is there to ask a question, and the material or information can be presented in another way, or give you an example that might help clarify it.

3.) The formal act of taking a class is a great help to most students. Most importantly, the organized weekly lessons and schedules for completing projects helps students to commit to the idea of learning a certain body of knowledge to permanent, exercisable memory. Most people do better with this kind of structured approach to learning. I can't tell you how many how-to books I've bought but never read or truly understood on my own.

4.) The online medium for taking classes has many benefits. Besides general flexibility, the Web's multimedia capabilities are uniquely suited for teaching many types of music courses, such as songwriting and arranging. There is easy access to listening to examples, over and over, on your own time, and this is much more convenient than taking ten CDs out of the library, and fishing around for the appropriate tracks. It is also a convenient medium for sharing your projects with other students, discussing them, and being able to see their comments for the remainder of the course. In live conversations, once the conversation is done, you can't reference it again. In an online discussion forum, you can return to it, think about it some more, and generally have more time to absorb what people are saying. This is a facet of the Berklee Online courses I look very much so forward to in order to improve my cognitive abilities with regards to music. I truly doubt my ability to derive this from simply reading a website or a book.

5.) Peer interaction is among the most important aspects of formal education. There is always someone better than you and worse than you at everything, and it's helpful to see where others are in the process - a measuring stick of sorts to hold up to yourself. This often reveals much about our own work. And it's inspiring and fun to be among like-minded people, all interested in the same subject.

6.) Classes can be project-oriented in a way that books are often not. Classes can give you step-by-step instructions, interspersed with videos and audio examples, to help you do it yourself. You then get feedback from your peers and from a master of the subject matter. Most (not all) books are a lot more about presenting the theory, with relatively less about the actual application, and certainly, providing none of the feedback that you can get with a class.

I thought long and hard before deciding to spend thousands of dollars on a college that's 1,300 miles from home. These were the strongest reasons I could find to take the classes. I have yet to compile an equally compelling list of negatives that would convince me NOT to spend the money on my education.

This is a very, very long winded way of saying... please, carefully consider your decision to attend school for the purposes of earning a living versus attending a school for love of the subject matter. If you truly love music, and believe yourself to be a capable musician who'll benefit from the education, by all means, do it. If you're doing it thinking it will in some magical way legitimize your musical ability and make it a marketable skill that you can earn a living from, please think again - I'd say you'd do best to skip music school if this is your intent.

Best 'o luck. This is just my opinion... I have been known to be wrong.

-Roger