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Guitar refinishing

13K views 89 replies 19 participants last post by  smokinguns3 
#1 · (Edited)
I am about to refinish my rg550. Its a little beat up (*not that I have ANY problem with that and in fact like beat up guitars) but it has some significant neck pocket cracks and so its an exploratory mission.

Firstly, I am going to be very frank about re-finishing. This means I am going to tell you the truth and its going to upset some, as there is an overwhelming amount of misinformation about re-finishing and unfortunately seen people vest significant time, effort and money only to end up with a sub standard finish....and quite a few are overwhelming abortions.

My experience....well, I worked in a major guitar factory in the finishing department until getting promoted into final assembly, management and then R&D. I have taken literally thousands of guitars from raw wood to finished product. Now as a 'hobby' I design, build and operate some unique racing vehicles; this fact is influencing the guitar and will be utilizing some finishing techniques that can be applied to different applications.

-In truth for a 'how to' I would much rather show how to do a solid or transparent as most of the refinished guitars are simple single color but I will try and help with this as much as possible.



Here is a pic of the guitar in question and the neck pocket cracks. The opposite side is the same.
I need to know if these cracks are finish or are compromising the guitar structurally.



Here the headstock after disassemble. I was fortunate the neck is superb and requires no major repair. On the left side you will note there is a pretty nasty scrape. This 'ding' also pressed in the edge of the wood, this will need to be built up.

NOTE:

I have seen an overwhelming amount of people who feel it necessary to remove the finish to wood. This, for lack of a better work is crazy as hell....crazy UNLESS you suspect issues in the wood (*as I do with the neck pocket cracks), want to do a transparent finish or are going to do a veneer (I have even successfully veneered over finish). One could argue that removing the preponderance or all of the finish will keep the thickness of the guitar OEM.....well thats true but for the most part unless the guitar is finished multiple times should not be an issue.


The finish on a guitar serves 2 purposes:
1. Cosmetic.
2. To protect the guitar.

The 'issue' with Basswood (used on many Ibanez) is that it is very susceptible to dings, more so IMO then any other common guitar wood. People forsake the 'protect the guitar' aspect of most of the home re-finish jobs. Not because they are lazy...they just dont know any better.

This is one reason removing the finish to wood is a bad idea. The problem is that before paint is ever applied to the body, a coat of armor was applied to the guitar for a base substrate. This armor (*at least what we used in the guitar factories) was a 2 part ultra high build polyester. This polyester was BRUTALLY hard but also sealed the wood, filled in minor gaps/dings and after sanding provided a solid foundation for subsequent layers of paint (that offer very little in the way of protection).

For my race cars/bikes I use Sherwin Williams Ultra Fill II #21 polyester primer and is very similar to the polyester we shot guitars with (*except the guitar polyester was yellowish-clear). Smells the same however.....
Ultra Fill or other high build poly would be a good choice for base substrate.

BUT......

Lets say you want to go another route for a protector coat.....

Go buy yourself a pint of epoxy.



While not a guitar, this is a subwoofer box I made. Note the yellowish wood, this is the 'pre sanded' fit pic but the only one I had on hand...now its gloss 'piano black'. This is because it was first 'painted' (*with a chip brush) with epoxy. After the epoxy dries it can be sanded smooth and will provide the protection, seal and fill needed to accept paint AND protect the guitar.

If you strip the guitar to bare wood simply paint your guitar (with brush) with epoxy. Runs, drips, brush marks are OK because they will be sanded out. If you need to re-coat with epoxy, after curing lightly sand or use acetone to 'break the glaze'. Epoxy forms a 'wax' that will need to be removed so there wont be any issues with adhesion to the previous layer.

BTW:

I am doing a true carbon fiber overlay (*not the vinyl horse poop) without bagging. I seen someone else 'attempt' to do this but they had a lack of experience in the technique...and the thread (*another forum) fell into obscurity (*because they f-ed it ALL up).

More later and feel free to ask questions......

~JH
 
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#64 ·
SprayMax 2K is a catalyzed clear coat: you need to inject that inner container of catalyst, mix it (by shaking it :) ) and the shelf-life is 24h only. It is quite expensive (around 25$ a can around Montreal, Canada) but it is well worth it. The spray pattern is good (around 6'' wide) and as the WorldRecordHolder was saying you can flash/wet coat very rapidly, so building up thickness is quite easy. I usually clear coat 2 bodies at the same time with one can (alternating the flash/wet coats on both to speed up the process).
However, if you use that product, PLEASE USE A CARTRIDGE RESPIRATOR!!!
Those pro products are full of isocyantes that are not really good for your health: http://www.ppg.com/coatings/refinish/en/safetyhealth/Documents/PDF_FAQs.pdf
Once, you sprayed your clear, I'd suggest to wait for at least 2 weeks before wet sanding and buffing (technically you can do it within 48 hours, but why rush and make an expensive mistake? :) )
 
#66 ·
Those pro products are full of isocyantes that are not really good for your health: http://www.ppg.com/coatings/refinish...s/PDF_FAQs.pdf
Once, you sprayed your clear, I'd suggest to wait for at least 2 weeks before wet sanding and buffing (technically you can do it within 48 hours, but why rush and make an expensive mistake?
You are correct, NO paint is good to breath. Lots of people think the waterborne paints are OK; well they are better for the environment but I wouldnt want to drink it!
Clearly safety should be observed when doing anything like this and according to the manufactures recomendations. I also suggested 'flash times' for examples. Flash, mix, gun settings/pressures/flow ect and safety are all stuff that would be supplied with the paints data spec sheet.

Also....

The cure time before sanding buffing depends on the product. I used UV cured paint that could be painted and then sanded in 10-15 mins!!!! I agree that for most cases 48h is early.

For whatever its worth.....

I dont wear a respirator for painting a guitar. I can hold my breath long enough to shoot a coat without breathing and go into another area!
(for bigger jobs I drag out the mask). I dont recommend most people doing this.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I am not going to comment on 'catalyst in a can', I have known about them but never used or known anyone that has used it. For all I know that stuff is tip top.

Also.....

Most automotive paint shops would likely shoot clear on your guitar for very little money as long as it was prepped and ready to hang, the next job they did that uses a BC/CC.

~JH
 
#67 ·
I had no intention of doing another guitar until this one was done but a Strat fell in my lap so I spent the last few days getting that together. Now the Strat is done I can get back to better things! LOL

Here is the guitar masked front and back and sides prepped. Once all sides have cloth applied, sealed and sufficient build I will block sand the entire thing. In truth runs and drips onto other sides wont matter....except it will multiply the amount of sanding needed!!!

Note the 'rustolum 333 Thinner'....yeah, thats acetone. I never knew why they didnt just call it acetone.





Heres the side layup. I have a seam at the base of the guitar at the strap button. I knew doing the sides would prove to be a real PITA.....I was not wrong!!!! I had to pull and re-lay the CF a few times to make sure there would not be any pulls or areas where the cloth edge was too close to the sides.

It looks rough now but should look perfect once the excess is trimmed and the sides blended.

~JH
 
#68 ·


After shaving the excess off the sides (very rough, ZERO sanding) I pulled a small piece of the masking tape back (still a good amount of sticker goo left behind near the top) to see how the transition would look between the sides and front/back. (*note that there is no 'build coats' on the sides so it does not have any depth).

I was concerned that because the weave doesnt match would look 'off'. I was pleased to see the transitions will look fine after they are finished. This will keep me from having to do a fade....thats just fine with me!!!!!
The transitions will look better once some build is on the sides.

Getting close!!!

~JH
 
#69 ·
Yup... that edge actually looks pretty good. I was wondering about that.

Oh yeah I have to thank you for the "spray can clear" rant. I ended up buying a can of Spraymax 2k clear coat to try out on my swirled Jem project. I shot it this morning and it's freaking rock hard already. It built up about as good as 4 cans of the Krylon Fusion clear I've used before. So at $25 for one can it ended up being cheaper too :D
 
#70 ·
I have never used the Spraymax 2K and honestly didnt understand how they could make a 2 part aerosol but after reading more info about it....I totally get it now.

Everything I have seen about the product seems fine for doing clears and may end up trying it one day for kicks.

You still cant adjust spray patterns, do pearls, metallics or other cool tricks....but WTF its still a 1000% better then conventional rattle cans!!!!

And its not just the build....its the QUALITY of the build as well. Paint 2 guitars one with a 2 part and the other an air dry. Try scratching them both lightly with a nail after 4 months. You will think the 2 part was a MUCH better deal after that!!!!!

~JH
 
#71 ·
I have never used the Spraymax 2K and honestly didnt understand how they could make a 2 part aerosol but after reading more info about it....I totally get it now.

Everything I have seen about the product seems fine for doing clears and may end up trying it one day for kicks.

You still cant adjust spray patterns, do pearls, metallics or other cool tricks....but WTF its still a 1000% better then conventional rattle cans!!!!

And its not just the build....its the QUALITY of the build as well. Paint 2 guitars one with a 2 part and the other an air dry. Try scratching them both lightly with a nail after 4 months. You will think the 2 part was a MUCH better deal after that!!!!!

~JH
Yeah I can already tell it's 1000% better, I'll never buy another air dry clear again. It's so much clearer it's like glass as well as being harder already than one I did with Krylon over 4 months ago.

You actually can adjust the spray pattern to some extent. It can go from a vertical to circular to horizontal pattern by adjusting the spray nozzle tip. But I get what you're saying completely.

Anyway... Looking forward to the next update on the CF :razz:
 
#72 · (Edited)


Something completely unrelated but another project I am working on.....its a functionality prototype deal, and just used a scrap piece of CF. It didnt need to be perfect as its not a production piece.

I will be able to apply my second build coat on the sides of the guitar tomorrow. The sides are taking more build coats to level out. This is because they are going up and down when applying the goo, and it always want to run off the sides as apposed to laying flat.

I figure it will take 3-4 coats before the sides are done enough to block sand.

Showing a pic of the 2nd side coat.....doesnt look much different then the 1st!!!!

~JH
 
#73 ·
dude, id give anything to have your experience and skill, im contemplating stripping my S7420 and painting it, it would be a lot cheaper than having a custom built, but im scared to death about screwing the guitar up. but this is something i really wanna try and you REALLY seem to have your **** together, first question, what sander would you suggest me buy to use on this project, im gonna start a thread on this as soon as i start it.
 
#74 ·
im scared to death about screwing the guitar up. but this is something i really wanna try and you REALLY seem to have your **** together, first question, what sander would you suggest me buy to use on this project, im gonna start a thread on this as soon as i start it.
You would really have to do something radical to screw up the guitar, meaning that even IF you have a catastrophic finish failure it is usually just a matter of removing the finish and starting over. Really the only thing that would really mess the guitar up is if you starting removing wood and subsequently compromised the guitar structurally or dimensionally.

As far as a sander goes.....use the 2 that god gave you (hands)! Earlier in this build I mentioned that it is not necessary to remove the oem finish only just sand it enough to get the shine off. The only reason you would want to remove the finish to wood is if you are going to do a transparent finish. A half hour with a sanding block and some 220 and the top and back will be good to go, going to have to hand sand the sides. Again.... NO reason to remove the finish to wood.

~JH
 
#75 · (Edited)




Today was a hallmark with the project.
I was able to strip off all the masking and see a basic idea of the finished product.

After pulling the tape I used a razor and dragged the blade around the edges (straight up, 90 degrees) This took off 'ribbons' of build around the entire perimeter. It is necessary to break down the edge, if not the edges would feel sharper then they do from the factory! By taking the edges down it will (*should) make the edge radii the same as the original. You will note that the 'meeting edges' look dull. This is because a pretty fair clip of material was removed. Once the final clear is shot they will come right back.

You can also see what looks like fingerprints. These were areas where a 'drip' flowed and I wiped it off with a towel. This is fine because now that all the sides are built, the entire guitar will be block sanded (AGAIN!!!!) and then shot with a UV protective clear. (*I stated before many, including this polymer will yellow if exposed to sunlight or other UV source for extended time. A UV protector will keep it from yellowing).

The final clear will tie everything together.



I am getting really close now!!!!!

~JH
 
#77 ·
From this.....





To this....



(Just having fun)

It was painful to take a pretty decent looking finish job and block sand it to this!!!! Seems like such a step backwards, but this step makes the difference between an OK paint job and something really nice. Blocking insures that it will be a glass like finish when its done. There are just a few little pecks I need to dress with a scotch bright.

Then:

-re-route the covered cavities and remove any glue that dripped inside
-remove dust with sticky cloth
-degrease with acetone
-hang and shoot clear
-finish sand
-buff

sell for a billion dollars with the time I have in this....I would still be loosing money!!!!

~JH
 
#78 ·


Just a few seconds after shooting the clear. Not that I am proud of it but I shot it outside with my air line running through the garage window and then carefully took it inside and hung it on the garage door track.

It looks in the pic like the clear is a little orange peeled. It should lay down after it start setting up. I am going to sand with 600 and buff so it wont matter anyway....

When its done and assembled I will use my big camera to take some finish shots. I have used my GS3 phone to take all the pics and it is IMPOSSIBLE to get a decent shot. NO pic I have posted is how the guitar really looks in person. The CF plays tricks with light and is difficult to get an accurate shot.

~JH
 
#83 ·
Thanks for all the nice comments guys!!!!

what did you clear this with ?
I used SW Planet Color urethane clear same as:
http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/334/PCCCQK1/10002/-1

except I buy it in gallon and not quart. BTW: a quart would do a poopload of guitars!!!

I have used a bunch of paints....PPG, Dupont, SW and Sikkens. The SW Planet Color paints are bundled and IMO are great for the hobbyist. (*plus they have a ton of wild colors/finishes)
-The fact is that I dont paint enough to remember what each paint 'likes', the Planet Color stuff is laid out so I dont have to spend a bunch of time experimenting till I get it shooting right.

I have a place to paint....but being lazy and in a hurry...ya know.
I avoided pissing off the wife for the most part but bringing in the body to cure still stunk up the bathroom (hung on shower rod) like a paint shop!!!!

-Still needs about 24 more hours before it comes off the hanger...

~JH
 
#84 ·








I took this last pic with mixing cut to show the reflections. I still find it near impossible to get any pictures that look the way it does in person.

I was able to do some final assembly today!!!! This means that I am almost done; so far it was about 3 weeks longer then I expected it to be to get here. In truth the carbon fiber was a 'fix' for the neck pocket cracks. By nature of carbon it should provide a significant increase in structural integrity vs just trying to 'glue the crack shut'.

Just need to solder the jack and string it up. Should be ready to play in a day or two.
I never considered it but the carbon fiber may change the guitars tone. I am interested to see if I can see any difference after its playing. Even though carbon fiber is light the guitar feels a little heavier.

~JH
 
#88 ·
I also try and help people on the Peavey Guitar forum. As I worked for the Peavey guitar R&D/final assembly division through the 90s I have some insight on Peavey guitars that most dont know. That being said a guy asked about refinishing guitars and I mentioned that CF was easy and fun. (*well....in truth it is a little time consuming but its NOT hard and IS fun)
Heres a dude that is 100% sure he knows WTF he is talking about and that I didnt do it. A prime example how sometimes its just better to listen then to speak.

http://forums.peavey.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=30471&sid=89c5b26cf8e460239dca25ec50a3649d

WOW! Thats amazing!

That said, thats not a DIY job, thats definitely vacuum bagging, pro mold having material.... The difference between that and a DIY job is astronomical and you know it.
I got to admit I laughed about this all weekend. I replied with a simple 'Was DIY and was not bagged'. I was hoping this chowder monkey would call me on it and say it wasnt in fact DIY!

I have a sneaking suspicion that he was able to do a little 'research' and found it was DIY and that he made one of the biggest tool comments of all time. I still have my fingers crossed that he will reply.

The funniest part is that my race team crew got a laugh out of this and now finishes everything they say with 'AND YOU KNOW IT!!!!' <a bunch of damn comedians....OK, I think its funny too!

~JH
 
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