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Fast Alternate Picking - string crossing problems

26K views 46 replies 21 participants last post by  Drew 
#1 ·
Hey everyone, I do have some problems with my alternate picking, especially with upstrokes.

Let´s take a lick in b minor as an example. This is a six note pentatonic pattern.

--d-u-d-u-d-u-d-u-d-u--d--u-d-u--d-u-d-u------
E-8-5---5-----------------------------------------
B-----8---8-5-8-5----5----------------------------
G------------------7-----7-5-7-5----5------------
D---------------------------------7----7-5-------
A------------------------------------------------
E------------------------------------------------

And so forth.

I play this with all alternate picking, so starting with a downstroke, then an upstroke and so forth.

My problem now is that every time I do an upstroke in order to move to the next string I have a hard time to not accidentally hit that string at the same time. So for example, if I do an upstroke on the high e string and want to move to the b string, I accidentally hit the b string on the side that is close to the high e string. I then do manage to hit the b string with a downstroke, but since it adds to the resistance and it produces some unwanted extra noise, I think it´s a technique flaw.

Does anyone have the same problem? The pattern above is difficult to me in particular because you have to change the string four times quite quickly. How do you manage to not hit the respective string? Do you angle the pick in a certain way so that it automatically moves over the next string?

And maybe someone can recommend me a good online lesson on the topic?

Best regards!
 
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#30 ·
I had similar problems with alt. picking. What i've found out is that the hole game is in the wrist. So what i did is simply practising a phrase at a very low speed (say 60bpm) but paying constantly attention to the movement of the right arm.
Remember the goal is to make small movements from your wrist not the entire arm. When you feel relaxed and confident increase speed by 10 bpm and repeat the hole thing.
The problem of accidently hitting the uper or lower string come from the right arm movement. Simply it does bigger than necessary moves.
 
#31 ·
So, my final resume to this topic is really that it's a matter of training the right forearm muscles to do the proper picking. My right forearm grew quite a bit in the last months and I am now able to pick 16th at 200 bpm without any tension whatsoever and it just feels great to be able to concentrate solely on your fretting hand. The key really is strength and endurance that will automatically give you sufficient control. It's really important to have strong pick attacks at high speed and for that you need strong muscles to build up enough force between your tiny picking motions.
The constant training on isolated downstroke and upstroke picking really did the trick for me by forcing your muscles to develop.
Personally I think it's futile to try to train playing clean and evenly when your muscles aren't actually able to and they won't adapt when you don't stress them accordingly.
So I would recommend building up pure strength (string skipping does wonders) and then work on control.

Another really useful exercise for my fretting hand which did a lot was forcing to play chromatics with middle, ring and pinky, power chords only with middle and pinky, some isolated exercises on ring and pinky involving maximum string skipping (high e to low E) and most important to do chromatic legato with excessive hammer-ons and pull-offs to stress your fingers as hard as possible. It will feel extremely awkward and even painful in the beginning, but if you keep on it, it will eventually loosen up and really give your fretting hand so much strength and freedom that your whole playing will get smoother and more fluid.

Strength is key.
 
#32 ·
Another really useful exercise for my fretting hand which did a lot was forcing to play chromatics with middle, ring and pinky, power chords only with middle and pinky, some isolated exercises on ring and pinky involving maximum string skipping (high e to low E) and most important to do chromatic legato with excessive hammer-ons and pull-offs to stress your fingers as hard as possible. It will feel extremely awkward and even painful in the beginning, but if you keep on it, it will eventually loosen up and really give your fretting hand so much strength and freedom that your whole playing will get smoother and more fluid.

Strength is key.
Very usefull tip from Asto. Follow his advice and also do other finger compinations on chromatics like 1st, 2nd, 4th finger, 1st,3rd,4th etc.
Currently i am away from his level (i play 16th notes at 130bpm, and sixtuplets at 90bpm) but i realized that doing this excersice helped me improve and advance my playing.
 
#33 ·
Hey everyone, it´s been a while. I think I finally managed to solve my string changing problem. I actually made a new thread about it entitled "Fast String Changes - Finally Solved?". I´d really appreciate it if you checked it and told me what you think!

Regards,

Tobi
 
#34 · (Edited)
I just found this thread again and wanted to mention something I discovered which some of you may find helpful. In some of my L-O-N-G past posts I explained my mysterious frustration of having an easier time getting the string crossings right at faster tempos then at medium tempos. I've often joked that my transmission was missing 2nd gear :). Of course at slow tempos, anything works so "first" gear is OK. Then, once I was playing more 4 notes to a beat up around 116bbm, I could work my way from there up to 160 or more... not really shred speed, but it all I really wanted personally. So why the hell was it such an issue once I dropped down to 4 notes per beat at around 104? Well now I finally think I know WHY, and though its still not a magic solution ( I still need to practice!), I think its a case where understanding was the key to the next breakthrough.

So... when I'm picking 4 notes/beat at anything past about 116, there is no choice but to pick with faster motions than I would at 100. And here's the thing... when you pick with a faster motion, and with the pick at an angle, the pick is just naturally "sprung" slightly upwards, even though your muscle only moved side to side. Since this "spring" action is working against your natural hand position, so your hand naturally moves the pick back down to the proper position, and is perfectly ready for your next side stroke WITHOUT YOU DOING ANYTHING to MAKE it happen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do you understand what a big deal this is? Past a certain tempo, it is possible to get the physics of the strings interaction with the pick to automatically do all the work of lifting the pick OVER the string you are intending to cross over. It works for both inside or outside alternate picking, though the timing changes slightly for each case. I've actually enhanced this by experimenting with different picks, and even filing my own pick shapes in search of the ideal. Picks with too steep an angle may not make this work as well as a pick with a more gradual angle, so if you try this and it doesn't seem to work at first, that may be why. (I was actually shooting myself in the foot for years, bringing a brand new pick to performances and then wondering why I s--ked compared to my home playing just hours before... the more worn angles bounced off the strings better for me!).

So anyway, what I'm trying to do now is this: When I practice slower, I try to make sure my actual pick motions are just as fast at 100 or even at 60, as they are at say, 150 or higher. This is proving to be more a mental exercise than physical!!! Several of you have pointed out that picking in all up (or down) strokes is a good exercise, but there is still the mental block that when the tempo is easier there is a tendency is to relax and NOT pick with the same fast motions.. Hence, the pick is NOT "springing" off the string, leaving YOU to scratch your head and contrive a way to consciously LIFT the pick OVER the strings. But SLOW practice with the same fast motions seems to be the key. Then as I move into those troublesome medium tempos my brain starts to do what it should, without my troublesome "thinking" getting in the way. Its still not fully automatic, but its miles beyond where I EVER thought I would get!

Now there is one more piece of this puzzle that is critical. If you don't do this, it will be a case of "close but no cigar". When you practice these fast pick motions at slower tempos, it won't benefit you at all to have the fast automatic spring motion lift the pick for you, if you don't immediately move the pick into position to pick the next string. So as soon as you start to get the hang of picking fast even when the tempo is slow, the next step is to immediately take advantage of the newly found automatic string-spring-lift, by moving the pick sideways into a "ready" position for the next picked note. If you time it right, you should no longer have to think about consciously lifting the pick over the string you don't want to mis-pick. I hope this makes sense!

Anyway, I just wanted to share all this. I know... its not much different from other L-O-N-G threads I've posted about my mysteriously having an easier time at higher tempos then at medium, but the difference is I finally can see WHY the higher tempos are less a problem. And this is VERY important... if you too are struggling with middle tempos and think you'll never get to the higher ones, try skipping past those middle tempos just to see what happens. It may be that like me you'll discover that the medium tempos are just a kind of "rough patch" for you, and that it gets easier past a certain BPM. Then, if you too find it get easier past a certain tempo, perhaps you will also realize why. Hey, if one of us discovers anything that helps, its always possible someone else may benefit, right?
 
#36 ·
Yes, you just need practice. Try practicing against a double bass drum at 90 until you get good, then keep moving it up.

I will say that simply playing fast has few practical applications. Phrasing, playing licks that are the correct length, landing on the right tone on a chord change, etc are much more important. I was pretty intensely working on this for a while and had a few perfect days where I hit 120 bpm sixteenths, but I still couldn't play music to save my life. It was just a skill.

Since, I don't really worry about speed and focus on playing stuff that sounds good. I typically play at 110 bpm and can throw in a quick run in here and there at that speed, but I couldn't just cruise along at that speed.
 
#37 ·
Yeah I like the more "Hit the right note at the right time" approach more, but it doesn't work great for some of the stuff I listen to and wish I could play. I'm focusing on phrasing right now, doing 3 o'clock blues by BB King to work on that for now.

I'll keep working on 16ths at 70 until I get it down perfect before bumping it up to 80. Much better to work on more important things, like you said, until I get better.
 
#38 ·
I'm not trying to criticize, but if you're having trouble playing 16th's cleanly at 70 bpm, you may actually want to spend some significant time practicing that skill. That's going to really limit what you're going to be able to play along with.

If you want a cool resource to use, try my guitar teacher's website:

http://www.shredmentor.com/

The double bass picking practice tool is actually free. It has different subdivisions at a variety of tempos. I think he has a website only membership as well where you can get access to a bunch of other resources.
 
#40 ·
For those of you having issue breaking past 70, 80, 90 BPM; I had a student come in yesterday that wanted to learn how to play solos. He had a number of mechanical inefficiencies that I will relate to you, so if you have them you can address them now.

I had similar issues myself, and I consulted a teacher. Now you can have the same information for free.

Strategy 1: Up Picking Only

This got me results faster than anything else I've tried. Use a metronome and work on the consistency of your up picking. Make it as efficient as possible, make each note articulate, clean, and at the same volume. Try doing an entire practice session just up picking, or take a song you play with strictly downpicking and reverse it. Whatever tempo you can get 8th notes on, you will be able to do alternate picking at 16th notes on, granted that you get the coordination down.

Strategy 2: Don't Mount Your Fingers

This mistake took me months to correct. I was mounting my middle and ring fingers on my picking hand at about the middle pick-up. This is a habit formed subconsciously because a lot of the really great sounding harmonics and sonority are in that section of your strings.

My teacher told me to use a picking technique more like a fist and to play closer to the bridge. Mounting was causing me to do all sorts of weird moves when I would go through scales that break my consistency. The fist helped correct that. Also the added tension when playing closer to the bridge makes it so the strings have less give, hence, more consistency.

This is easier said than done. Learning a new picking technique will set you back 6 weeks. However, would you rather lose 6 weeks to achieve your goals, or lose 6 years using an inefficient technique? There are ways to capitalize on these 6 weeks. You can learn a song at a slower tempo that you know you can play easily, using your brand new technique. A new song is a new opportunity to learn it correctly the first time around. Don't get tempted with using your old technique.

It's that simple. Just these two things got me from my 140 BPM plateau to playing 160, and with bursts going as fast as 192 after being warmed up. It's a process like a fitness program. It takes 6 weeks to see some real results, but these two tips worked wonders for me.

Best of luck in breaking those barriers.
 
#41 ·
That's an interesting concept about up picking only. I'll have to try that. My teacher said something similar although he said down picking only. Basically, as he tried to push the speed of his down picking, he had to figure out the most efficient way to get the pick back around the string. This ultimately led to just going through the string, in other words alternate picking.

I too tend to anchor my pinkie on the bridge pickup but find that I can pick much faster and with more accuracy by lifting my hand and playing closer to the bridge as you mentioned. However, I find that I have a really hard time riffing with that hand position.

One thing my teacher also said was don't get too hung up on "right" vs "wrong" technique. There are people who play REALLY fast using "wrong" technique. John Petrucci is famous for anchoring his pinkie on the bridge pickup.



The example my teacher uses is Michael Angelo Batio, who holds his pick the "wrong" way:



Notice that he has zero wasted hand motion. It's all about economy of motion to play that fast.
 
#43 · (Edited)
Good tips being given here. I've made a few adjustments over the years that have helped that i'll share.

1)No more pinky anchoring :). I used to anchor my pinky. I could pick fast, but felt i reached my limit. Watching many of my favorite players none of them anchored so I decided to make a change. It was awkward at first and set me back a little, but in the long run it helped. There are many great pickers who anchor, but for me personally I felt i needed to move away from it to improve my speed and accuracy. Where i ended up is with my hand in the same basic position, but with the pinky not anchored. I never went with the fist thing as I like to have my hand more open and fingers ready for hybrid picking or occasional tapping on the fretboard.

2)Watch yourself in the mirror or video tape yourself. I thought i was picking from the wrist, but watching myself play from a different perspective I saw things i was surprised by and saw opportunities for less movement and more efficiency.

3)Experiment with different pick angles. Rotate your thumb and index finger clockwise a little to see if that helps the pick glide through the strings faster, or try straightening it out if you're hitting at too much of an angle. Also try angling the pick downward a little to see what effect that has. Also experiment with circular picking technique.

4)Pick harder. I know this songs wrong but it actually helped me. To be as efficient as possible i used to pick very lightly. I found by digging in more (and practicing without an amp so i could clearly hear each note) helped a lot. It forced me to clearly articulate each note so i could hear it and made me really feel each and every pick attack and string hop. When I was playing lightly i would sound crappy if i didn't have the right amount of gain. By exaggerating things a bit i improved my technique...and when backing off a little on the attach/volume i could go that much faster and still have control.

5)Practice with a crappy tone. A buddy of mine and I were in a band and we did the Racer X type thing back in the day. What i always admired about his playing over mine was that he could pick up any guitar and any amp make it sound good. He worked in a music store which probably helped as he would always plug in to all different amps and shred for potential buyers. I always felt uncomfortable if my tone was off, not playing with the right amount of gain, etc. I started forcing myself to play with a very dry distorted tone. The crappier the tone the better. I felt if i could sound good with that tone then i would sound that much better with a decent one. Too much distortion was probably hiding a lot deficiencies in my playing, but i didn't want to practice with a totally clean sound because with just a little over drive you get additional noises and stuff that you need to control and mute that you don't have to deal with when playing with a totally undistorted tone

6)Economy picking - I know it's a completely different technique from alternate picking but learning to economy pick was beneficial for me. For years i dismissed it because all my favorite shredders were primarily alternate pickers so i figured why bother. It was foreign and difficult for me to do, and I knew how long it took me to develop alternate picking technique. Subconsciously i think it was a cop out because i was too lazy to invest in something that I had already developed pretty well using alternate picking. I was almost afraid i would develop habbits that could have a negative effect on my alternate picking technique too. Eventually I came around and spent time learning it. The machine gun picking sound works a lot of cases but sometimes the flowing sound of economy picking works better. It also helped with my sweeping/arpeggios.

As many have said here and elsewhere there is no one perfect technique for everyone. It's a matter of watching what others do and trying to apply things that you see them doing that you think might work for you. In the end you'll find what works and what doesn't. Unless you're doing something that you think is really counter productive go with it and make adjustments as necessary taking ideas from the ones who do it best.

One of my all time favorite pickers is Vinnie Moore. I always loved how he played with such a clean tone and every note was clear and articulate. But even with him, if you watch he is picking primarily with his elbow which is something i would never dream of doing and often considered bad technique. That being said it works for him quite well


Another example...listening to Michael Angelo Batio speak he says the one thing you must avoid when trying to pick fast is moving your thumb and index finger (i.e. all movement should be from the wrist). He says if you flick your thumb and index finger you will never play fast. There are exceptions to that rule too (and probably exceptions to just about any other "rule" we can think of)
 
#44 ·
Tried that all up picking thing yesterday. Wow, what a mess! :lol: It's just such an unusual picking motion and I kind of question the relevance of it. Playing around against a double bass made me remember a few other tips my teacher gave me that I think are useful.

1. If you're trying to make a jump to a new speed, don't concern yourself with being able to immediately shred away across the whole neck. Start small, like over two strings and work on a repeating pattern, like 2 or 3 NPS. Master that and then build out to additional strings.

2. Pay very close attention to your picking hand. Literally stare at it and watch what you're doing. I noticed when I had a very hard time playing cleanly, my right hand was not in control and there was way too much motion. When I cleaned up the pick motion, things fell into place.
 
#47 ·
Since this is getting bumped again, I'm going to STRONGLY recommend checking out Troy Grady's "Cracking the Code." It's a very in-depth and detailed look at the mechanics of alternate picking. It's helped me tremendously - partly by just getting me inspired to practice (Season 1 is actually just really cool aside from the material - it's something I'd love my non-guitarist friends to see, because it really captures the feeling of learning how to play, thinking you're getting somewhere, and then hearing something that absolutely blows you away), and partly because there are a lot of REALLY valuable observations about the mechanics about how certain lines work and why they flow well when picked a certain way.

https://www.youtube.com/user/troygrady

Seriously, crack open a beer and then sit down with Season 1 Episode 1 last night. You'll get hooked, AND you'll learn something.



This is something he addresses at length, actually - that works well for your fretting hand, but the problem with alternate picking is many of the problems you run into don't even exist until you get up to a pretty brisk tempo. So there's a bit more to it than that.
 
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