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post #31 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-01-2020, 02:01 AM
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Re: Covid, and you.

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Originally Posted by Formerly Given To Fly View Post
I know it’s a respiratory infection, it’s highly contagious, and death is usually caused by pneumonia. What traits does this virus have that make it so effective at being a virus? What makes it special? Perhaps I do not need to know, but it would be nice to know that other people do know. Also, knowing what it “isn’t” has value too.

On the other hand, I would be hesitant to be entirely open with society about unsettling information at the moment...
OK. I never get involved in online discussions as they descend into squabbling far too quickly and with something like this topic I'm even more hesitant to put my hand up, but no one else has chimed in and I know there are clinicians here, I'm guessing they are also wanting to stay out of this.

I'm currently working 13+ hours a day on this bug, have been since January. I'm not going to say where I work or exactly what I'm doing as anything I say is my own opinion and under no circumstances should the information I provide be taken as medical advice, I recommend speaking with your physician or public health representative. I've been working in clinical virology for over twenty years, I've worked in collaboration with the WHO for about 15 of those years and I have in the past (and still do) provide advice to various levels of government and international bodies on public health surveillance and laboratory-based outbreak response matters, among other things.

What do you want to know? If I can't answer your question directly, I can most likely point you to sources that will allow you to make an informed decision.

To your questions above.

"What traits does this virus have that make it so effective" - It a coronavirus, an efficient pathogen whose relatives have been associated with the common cold for a very long time. The more common ones are thought to have jumped from camels or cattle to humans about 100 years ago. This one came from bats and has been bouncing back and forth for a long time. Viruses are like safe-crackers once they get the right combination they are off and racing if given the right environment, it's what they do.

"What makes it special" - This particular bug has managed to hit the jackpot of very high transmissibility whilst not killing too many people as that would create an evolutionary dead-end. It will continue to evolve and in my professional opinion, this is likely to result in a virus that is less deadly, whilst retaining it's high transmissibility. This is an evolutionary win-win for the virus. Nature is a tinkerer, not an inventor.


I'm not seeing anything about this bug that is being covered up, except for maybe the actual numbers. Some countries don't want others to know exactly how many are infected and how many are dying as this would project weakness. This is kind of stupid in my opinion, you need to know where stuff is to deal with it. It's a virus, it's not going to go away just because you want it to and it's not going to stop if you just try throwing money at it either. What have needed is time, our industry has been stripped of funding for decades and we have been warning that this was going to happen since the original SARS. So, we are now playing a dangerous game of catch-up. A couple of billion dollars over the last 15 years would have saved trillions, not to mention the lives of many people and the subsequent disabilities that are and will continue to be suffered by those who survive infection.


This doesn't mean we just give and say well I'm going to get it anyway, so what the heck. Please, do not go down that road, one of the traps with this bug is the high proportion of people that end up hospitalised, if you all end up in hospital at once we won't be able to look after you properly. We have been able to reduce the mortality substantially by learning what treatment methods work best, the early days were bad but it's getting better. It's like the toilet paper situation, there's enough for everyone but not if everyone decides to go for it all at once.

I'll do my best to get back to any questions, but as I said my days are 16 hours all up at the moment and I'm pretty wrecked. There's plenty of info available, but there is also some absolute crap being circulated.


If you want to get a really good run-down on the latest virology stuff in an easily digestable "conversational" style podcast, then these guys are good https://www.microbe.tv/twiv/ during the early part of the outbreak I disagreed with some of their conlcusions, but they have since come around. For example they advocated against the use of face masks initially, they have since figured out that masks, when used correctly, are a very useful part of an effective containment strategy.
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post #32 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-01-2020, 04:41 AM
 
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I really appreciate your post. I found an interview with a Columbia University virologist. “We do not know” was the most prevalent answer which I respect. Apparently, it has caused unpredictable problems from people being asymptomatic (which is not as well understood as previously thought) to having neurological problems. These were shared as observations and that it is not understood why the virus can do this. She erred on the said of caution in here answers. There did not seem to be any conflict between your information and hers but I am probably not the best judge of that.

I understand not wanting to be the country with the most cases and deaths. China may not have done anything wrong. Some world leaders seem to think otherwise but they are not telling anyone why they think that. It may just be political nonsense because there is a tremendous amount of that going around right now.

Until today, it seemed like the flow of information regarding the virus had stopped. The effects it is having on society has been the focus. I understand your hesitation to get involved and I know you have to be very careful with your words. You answered my questions, which again, I really appreciate.
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post #33 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-03-2020, 10:15 AM
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Re: Covid, and you.

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China may not have done anything wrong.
If you are serious - and i think you are - here's a small sample of intentional malice...
.
  • China hid "an event" Oct 6-11, 2019 where all normal cell phone tower activity was zero surrounding the Wuhan biolab unethically working on coronavirus mutations. (IMHO this timeline of outbreak would fit the worldwide timeline of infection quite well as people had strange symptoms as early as late Nov).
  • Failed to report the new Coronavirus to WHO
  • Lied to world and complicit WHO stating the virus was NOT transmissible human-to-human as far back as Dec (see wetmarket below).
  • Arrested Wuhan opthomologist Dr. Wenliang & other early whistle blowers who soon died a martyr.
  • Arrested and disappeared countless nurses & bloggers, some streamed real time (all since purged by google/YT/Twitter)
  • Horded PPE in bulk while selling PPE worldwide with reported 80% defect rate. Also sent stuff as "humanitarian aid" that famously the gowns looked like confetti.
  • Demanded all Chinese lab samples destroyed after the entire virus DNA genome was uploaded to open database by ethical doctors & bioworkers in China who went against CCP "lie at all cost protocol"
  • Kept outbound global travel open leaving China (why contain).
  • Communist Xi Jinping failed to warn the public until last day of Chinese New Year Jan. 20, 2020. ALLOWED MILLIONS EXPOSED TO LEAVE while keeping the facade and exposing their own citizens to this deadly outbreak, only days later to shutter them inside like prisoners trapped to simply survive or die (no treatment).
  • Had dozens of mobile crematoriums running 24/7 that raised recorded sulfur dioxide levels recorded from satellite where unreported outbreaks were occurring.
  • Yes indeed Chained/boarded up citizens in Wuhan, etc. in their med-rise apartments with videos (since banished) also showing dead on sidewalks & cars not moved for weeks in Feb on the streets.
  • Once the world REALLY noticed, tried to pin the outbreak on dirty Wuhan "wetmarket" (one of the early infected was a worker selling shrimp that tracing had links back to only ~10-20% of infected in Wuhan proving she could not be patient zero). Viral CCP owned TicToc & social media BOTS spread this narrative of people eating live bats (the viral propeganda videos were not from wuhan, nor 2019).
  • Then Blamed US military for the outbreak & spreading COVID-19 to china.
  • Interestingly, as far back as January tried to make a legal patent claim for Remdesivir (essentially useless with no FDA approval for any treatment since it's creation in 2009) from Gilead Labs (owned by... wait for it... George Soros shadow company with investment from Fauchi & Bill Gates).

If somone truly has an open mind on how this global panemic was allowed to happen, this documentary is worth a view in July 3 if you're not really sure what's going on.

The Coverup of the Century | Zooming In’s one-hour documentary movie follows investigative reporter Simone Gao’s inquiry into critical questions about the pandemic
http://bit.ly/SimoneGao
Zooming In is a weekly in-depth/investigative report program hosted by the award-winning journalist Simone Gao.



BE WELL & SAFE EVERYONE!
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post #34 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-06-2020, 03:45 AM
 
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Re: Covid, and you.

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Originally Posted by pteropid View Post
This doesn't mean we just give and say well I'm going to get it anyway, so what the heck. Please, do not go down that road, one of the traps with this bug is the high proportion of people that end up hospitalised, if you all end up in hospital at once we won't be able to look after you properly. We have been able to reduce the mortality substantially by learning what treatment methods work best, the early days were bad but it's getting better. It's like the toilet paper situation, there's enough for everyone but not if everyone decides to go for it all at once.

I'll do my best to get back to any questions, but as I said my days are 16 hours all up at the moment and I'm pretty wrecked. There's plenty of info available, but there is also some absolute crap being circulated.


If you want to get a really good run-down on the latest virology stuff in an easily digestable "conversational" style podcast, then these guys are good https://www.microbe.tv/twiv/ during the early part of the outbreak I disagreed with some of their conlcusions, but they have since come around. For example they advocated against the use of face masks initially, they have since figured out that masks, when used correctly, are a very useful part of an effective containment strategy.
I also appreciate the podcast link! Very useful!
I have no intention of giving up and getting the Rona anyways because it might seem inevitable. I’m pretty sure every news clip you might see of America shows the worst of the worst of people’s behavior. There are some people who are taking things seriously. People following expert advice and being safe is a hard sell for the media. “Surging” numbers and the color red captures more eyeballs so the media opts for that. Hence why I don’t really like watching the news: sensationalized fear really drags me down. I would think a pandemic does not need help in causing fear or worry...
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post #35 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-06-2020, 03:26 PM
 
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Re: Covid, and you.

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Hence why I don’t really like watching the news: sensationalized fear really drags me down. I would think a pandemic does not need help in causing fear or worry...

Well said... I have a hard time believing 100% of what I'm told on the news. Not necessarily because it isn't true, but because of the way it is presented. Many news stories don't add up, have omitted key info in a rush to be the first to broadcast the "breaking news". Turns out later to be a completely different story, but by the time the truth comes out it is too late and the news media is on to the next big thing.
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post #36 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-31-2020, 05:30 AM
 
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Re: Covid, and you.

https://nypost.com/2020/07/27/david-...site%20buttons

https://nypost.com/2020/07/28/cuomo-...repercussions/

https://pagesix.com/2020/07/30/lady-...264.1596180332

Both New York Post articles are about the same concert. You need to read both articles to get a clearer picture of how bizarre the situation is. I feel it will not be viewed as a bizarre event unlikely to happen again. The third article supports that feeling. When you take into account the people involved in the Hamptons concert plus Cuomo’s reaction, this might be less about a concert and more about people with power using the opportunity to demonstrate it. The problem is concerts are not really safe according to the government. I admit certain kinds of concerts are not safe, but if a governor views all “concerts” as health risks, putting a blanket ban on all of them is a very easy thing to do. It also gives the illusion we have some control over Mr. Covid which looks like good leadership. (Musicians only have power when airlines destroy instruments, which is not really an issue right now.)
I expect very little forgiveness will be shown to music if someone gets Covid at a concert. I hope I’m wrong. I hope nobody gets Covid at a concert or any other type of event, but the threat of civil and criminal repercussions over the Hamptons concert suggests there is no margin for error for live music, which is not helpful to musicians who have not weathered this storm all that well. If you can survive on streaming income, good, that is basically all that is left.

I’m optimistic though...
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post #37 of 46 (permalink) Old 07-31-2020, 09:59 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Covid, and you.

It just illustrates a primary factor, large gatherings are not safe, because people for the most part, are idiots. You have the my right to not wear a maskers, the up your ass no social distancers, and who can go to a concert or a game and not be vocal, which just spreads from anybody infected. The majority of the Northern Italy outbreak was traced back to a single soccer [football] game. I rolled the dice and went to my favorite BBQ spot on the way back from PT the other day, owner, no mask, yelling at his employees, you could see the kitchen, nobody with a mask on, yelling which order is done. I had to think long and hard if I was even going to eat the food. And I'll bet you every restaurant and fast food is doing the same thing. Show you a mask for the one that takes your money but the guys behind doors aren't playing by the same rules. And don't tell me you can't catch this by eating it, that's why you're supposed to keep your hands away from your mouth while you're out.

And until EVERYBODY gets on the same page, controlling this is a fantasy. That's why you have 17 marlins tested positive, that infected 2 Phillies, and it will just go on and on. And they think there will be football?1 145 on each sideline and baseball can't even get their act together?

Life is different and will remain that way, possibly forever. I doubt any vaccine is going to be effective enough to stop it much less than 1/2 the population would take it anyway. So like the common cold, it';s here to stay, unlike the common cold, it will kill.

I'm no more optimistic than I was 3 months ago.
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post #38 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-01-2020, 04:29 AM
 
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Re: Covid, and you.

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It just illustrates a primary factor, large gatherings are not safe, because people for the most part, are idiots. You have the my right to not wear a maskers, the up your ass no social distancers, and who can go to a concert or a game and not be vocal, which just spreads from anybody infected. The majority of the Northern Italy outbreak was traced back to a single soccer [football] game. I rolled the dice and went to my favorite BBQ spot on the way back from PT the other day, owner, no mask, yelling at his employees, you could see the kitchen, nobody with a mask on, yelling which order is done. I had to think long and hard if I was even going to eat the food. And I'll bet you every restaurant and fast food is doing the same thing. Show you a mask for the one that takes your money but the guys behind doors aren't playing by the same rules. And don't tell me you can't catch this by eating it, that's why you're supposed to keep your hands away from your mouth while you're out.

And until EVERYBODY gets on the same page, controlling this is a fantasy. That's why you have 17 marlins tested positive, that infected 2 Phillies, and it will just go on and on. And they think there will be football?1 145 on each sideline and baseball can't even get their act together?

Life is different and will remain that way, possibly forever. I doubt any vaccine is going to be effective enough to stop it much less than 1/2 the population would take it anyway. So like the common cold, it';s here to stay, unlike the common cold, it will kill.

I'm no more optimistic than I was 3 months ago.
In general, I agree that crowds are not safe. However, the fact COVID-19 was never mentioned in the articles and the key people involved are Gov. Cuomo and David Solomon (DJ, CEO of Goldman Sachs) there might be some political contention involved. I do not know if what Solomon did was illegal, it seems if it was this would be pretty straightforward. The point is the governor of New York is not going to go out of his way to lambaste a concert because it isn’t safe. He will lambaste a concert for “egregious social distancing violations” if the concert is put on by the CEO of Goldman Sachs. I can’t imagine it was the only unsafe concert to occur in the state as of late.

Lady Gaga did not perform because:
“Gaga really wanted to do it, but the Rose Bowl pulled the plug because of what happened in the Hamptons,” a music insider told Page Six. “They feared that once the crowd realized who it was, they would run toward the stage, not social distance, and they feared they’d lose their license.”
The Rose Bowl was scared the fans might not socially distance causing the venue to lose their license. The health of the fans was not mentioned. Another reason banning concerts would be problematic is the reason banning books is problematic: everyone wants to know why it’s banned which leads to proliferation.

Life is different. We are not going back to how things were which I think is a good thing. It may not feel like that now though. Money can’t buy a vaccine, but I imagine it helps in creating one. Every country has an interest in a vaccine(s) and many countries have committed substantial resources to developing one. We may fail, but how many times have we tried to develop a vaccine with the full weight of the world supporting the effort? That aspect seems to be underestimated.

I wouldn’t worry about it too much, Congress seems to know what they are doing. They are true beacons of Hope!
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post #39 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-02-2020, 06:37 AM
 
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Re: Covid, and you.

Here in Melbourne Australia......i call bullsh!t on the whole lot.

Im work in essential services. If its such a deadly virus...
-Why arent the police, ambulance, fire brigade etc etc dropping like flies?
-If the masks are effective, why the social distancing?
-If the social distancing works, why the masks?
-Why are the hospitals empty? I know this as a lot of my clients work in hospitals and are struggling to get shifts as they have nothing to do.

Everything is contradictory and nothing seems to make sense.

Ive never trusted he government....and likely never will.

My line of work is so busy, we cant keep up....and most people are very distrusting of the facts spewed forth by the main stream media.

So...i wont change my way of life. I will do as i normally do and will not bow to any ridiculous 'rules' imposed by these puppets.

Anyways...hope y'all have a wonderful day
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post #40 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-02-2020, 01:38 PM
 
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I am a generally healthy person.

Growing up I only ever got sick from a cold maybe once every few years.

I didn't have a great dirt, and had terrible sleep patterns where there were weeks on end where I could hardly manage 3 hours of sleep a night.

I should have gotten sick way more often but was lucky never to have.

Now that I'm an adult, and work with children daily, my immunity is always put to the test. And I do fine.

How ever, my wife, who gets sick very easily, isn't so lucky. I tend to bring Alot of bugs home and she tends to catch them.

If one of my students has any type of big, not just covid, the likely hood of her catching it while I am asymptomatic is very high.

Looking out side of my own household, if I visit my parents the risks are even higher.

My dad is closing in his 70s and my mom is in remission from cancer.

My mom is a bank manager and was lucky enough to have been sent home since early March.

My dad in the other hand is not so lucky and have been sleeping in separate rooms at home for months as an extra precaution.

That said, as a teacher I have conflicted views.
We were sent home and lost 3 months of in person education for "safety" and went strictly online.

Well ok, it was for safety. However students pretty much lost that 3 months as it was a waste of time for 90 % of students who refused to join in online.

So now we are back in August and people are dying for a return to normal. So teacher and students are being sent back into a public setting, where we will be in a room with up to 35 children again.

We are being told that everything is going to be fine. Well ok. Sure. But why is this any different then March? Couldn't we have just stayed in school then?

If not and it was so important to be sent home, why send us back now? Especially when a neighboring county is reporting 1000+ cases a day and averaging 20 deaths a week according to the current reports.

I don't mind taking the needed precaution, but we are also being told as teachers, it's our responsibility to sanitize the entire classroom before school, during our lunch and after school.
We are being asked to stay on campus from 7am to 530pm.

We are being asked to enforce social distance practises in groups of 35 on average.

And we are told that everything will be fine as long as we uphold CDC guidelines with students who don't even stay in their seats, let alone their classrooms on average.

I get both sides of the argument, but not when the narrative keeps flipping back and forth.
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post #41 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-03-2020, 02:09 AM
 
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Re: Covid, and you.

The opening of schools will be hard. It is not fair (or realistic) to ask parents to be rational about their children. It is not fair to ask teachers to sanitize the building(s). I don’t know what is possible but I would be surprised if students behave the same way as they did in March. They have gone through the same events as the adults one way or another so the reintroduction of structured learning might feel like “stability” which is something everyone wants/needs. Either way, you should be paid more because no one teaching a classroom of 35 is paid enough, pandemic or not.
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post #42 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-03-2020, 03:08 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Covid, and you.

That's what you get when you have such strong leadership. When the buck is passed to each state and county system to make up their own rules. FDR had a sign on his desk that rings true to this day, THE BUCK STOPS HERE! It's unfortunate there is nobody taking that responsibility today, the buck is just somebody elses problem to deal with, passed along until the right scapegoat is found.
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post #43 of 46 (permalink) Old 08-05-2020, 11:03 PM
 
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Re: Covid, and you.

My mom is a full-time teacher at a private school. After 2 months of anxiety, stress, and dilemma, she finally made up her mind on whether or not to keep her job (she's held this position for 12 years now, but there is no retirement package anyway--and no union).

Various complications (including a hurricane, most recently) have continuously pushed back dates for meetings and hampered channels of communication for weeks, although the complete lack of stability and proper planning/adequate preparation was already an issue.

The steadily-rising clamor of complete fly-by-night chaos on the part of federal, state, and municipal governments, and the public school systems they control, has been providing a backdrop of flux and uncertainty since March, and is in no danger of subsiding any time soon.

For her school--with private investors at the helm and the whims of parents being the ultimate motivating factor--the ebb and flow of contradictory (and, I daresay, contrarian) leadership, at every level of every system, has completely derailed any confidence or security for virtually (no pun, hur hur) every aspect of education. This climate has left both teachers and parents not only clueless, but helpless, and frankly hopeless, as well as highly-polarized and over-politicized in regards to their collective fates.

Her fellow educators, who have been deftly manipulated with the classic "divide and conquer" tactic to smooth over rumpled feathers, stifle disgruntlement and disagreement, and prevent a unified momentum (amongst those who already aren't unionized in the first place), are too afraid to lose their jobs to speak up, even when the fear of endangering themselves or their households is very realistic and tangible (elderly, immunocompromised, etc--and I mean quite literally, not in a buzzword/hyped-up way).

She had already made up her mind that she simply wasn't willing to work in-person under the current circumstances/conditions (especially with such a slipshod and slapdash strategy, and blatant lack of structured planning), but today she notified her boss that she isn't comfortable with the administration's decision to open for in-person learning, and she won't be returning to work for in-person teaching in the building.

I wish all teachers the best always, but especially in these truly trying times. They never receive the proper "worth" by society (as indicated by salaries) even under the best economies, but this is really a moment to stop and think about how difficult it is to decide between not just your health and your job, but literally your life and your way of earning a living.

Thank you to everyone here who is doing their part, in any way, to help mitigate the pandemic, and improve the health and home of those impacted on a "dead serious" level by the Fall 2020 In America scenario.
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post #44 of 46 (permalink) Old Yesterday, 03:37 PM
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Re: Covid, and you.

Some facts for perspective...

45% of all US coronavirus deaths have taken place in facilities housing 0.6% of the U.S. population
https://freopp.org/the-covid-19-nurs...s-3a47433c3f70

These of course were in the worst governed states like NJ, NY, PA, IL, MA, MI, where ignorant governors signed executive orders forcing COVID infected patients back into nursing homes (in NJ/NY this was criminal negligence as triage centers i.e. Javits Center & Comfort ship - costing millions - went unused).
https://twitter.com/pdubdev/status/1...261248/photo/1

Flu/influenza is a serious health problem, of course ignored by politicians cause it didn't fit their objectives at the time. Flu shots were good for big pharma & healthcare but not politics until now. The CDC flu data is below worth a read.
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html

Symptomatic Flu: 30-40 MILLION yearly USA causing...
Medical Visits: 14-20 million due to flu yearly USA causing...
Hospitalizations: 350,000 - 1,000,000 yearly USA ...
resulting in 20,000-80,000 DEATHS yearly USA

You can stay dazed and confused chugging blue pills or instead lookup the hospitalization & death rate of COVID-19 in populations below 55. Next look it up for school age kids. Try to find actual science on the "asymptomatic spread" boogie man. Then ask yourself why you weren't afraid to leave your house the last decade or drive a car. Be safe.
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post #45 of 46 (permalink) Old Yesterday, 05:18 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Covid, and you.

I read political advisor, conservative think tank, regular Fox contributor, and "facts" take on a whole new meaning. Although they're probably more valid than Hannity's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avik_R...20and%20policy.

Flu, deaths 12-61k depending on year, but let's not let CDC facts get in the way


Facts, diseases kill older people easier, duh.

Symptomatic Illnesses Deaths
Age group Estimate Estimate
18-49 yrs 14,428,065 2,803
50-64 yrs 13,237,932 6,751
65+ yrs 5,945,690 50,903

https://www.google.com/search?q=US+d...hrome&ie=UTF-8

So just let everybody under 50 work, then they can catch it and take it to everybody over 50, doesn't matter if fewer of them die, but hey, those that survive will be getting their SS benefits! Unless there's a second term because big Red has been trying to kill that since it was created. But it not the work as much as it is play. Let's leave the bars open, restaurants can eat outside. Ever see the kitchen?? Everybody you may see has a mask on but NObody in the kitchen does.

So now the nursing home pandemic lesson is lessened, there's still 1000 dying a day. At least that's down from 2500. So April to April, 400,000? Only 7 times more than the flu on it's worst year in the last 20....... Unless everybody starts wearing a mask actually above their chins, they might cut 100k off that. But then there's next year.

Families have been created much later since the boomers, my dad was 62 when I was a senior [school age], many today are in their 50's with school age kids. Send them all back to school to spread it and let's look at even higher numbers by April. You don't have to be IN SCHOOL to learn. My grandkids will have 2 days a week on very irregular schedules in school, rest online like they finished last year. Send the free lunch money to those that need it. Damn, you know people actually get college degrees online. And you can even pay $50k a semester to do it, or $1200. Depends on what name you want on the scrolled paper.

Political agenda's [I didn't bring it up.....] are trying to save a few lives, and win a few votes in the meantime. But since the liar in chief has been so trustworthy I'm surprised he has an approval rating at all. I'm sure it must be the "right not to mask"ers, after all it must be in the constitution they have a right to get others sick. Meat processing plants running rampant, like any other plant where there's close contact, country has to work, people have to die, that's life, or death as it is. But where the F*** are the paper towels? At least we can wipe our arses now.

Good friend of this board is still fighting it, couldn't get out of bed for 3 weeks, then it killed his immune system so bad he got infections everywhere so spent 30 days on heavy antibio's, and he's 40's. And we all "know" the long term repercussions have yet to be finalized, silicosis of the lungs, enlarged hearts, clotting, everything is just peachy. And the miracle vaccine half the population of flat earthers won't take will only keep antibodies for how long, and is only how effective to begin with? And then, let's go again next year.

But in the end, it is just a bad cold. That's perspective. At least we're not Belgium or Spain......
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