Fakes versus replicas versus customs - Jemsite
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post #1 of 72 (permalink) Old 02-24-2010, 05:18 PM Thread Starter
 
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Question Fakes versus replicas versus customs

Hey all,

Seeing as how the Dan-O-Caster thread got closed, and some (IMHO) pretty important issues were raised regarding custom guitars, I thought I'd start this thread to get a feel for the general consensus among Jemsiters.

Most of us have owned or modified a guitar at one point or another, and several of us have purchased aftermarket parts in an attempt to build our own custom JEMs, Universes, or RGs. So, what's your feeling on the legality of these customs? What, in your opinion differentiates a "fake" from a "replica" from a "custom"? Because to me, there is a huge difference between the Chibanez fakes we keep seeing on evilBay and an RG neck on an aftermarket body. Or between those and an aftermarket neck on a JEM body.

The feeling of one member in the other thread seemed to be that unless a guitar was 100% made by Ibanez, the headstock should not be allowed to be advertised as an Ibanez, and that selling an Ibanez neck on an aftermarket body with aftermarket parts constitutes fraud and devalues the genuine article. I wonder how that applies, in our collective opinions, to purchasing a replacement guitar neck and slapping it on your JEM because you wanted a maple fretboard. Does that make the JEM worth less? What about custom swirl jobs that are sold right here on this forum? What about a JEM neck on an aftermarket body?

I'm not trying to start a fight here, I just wonder how we justify making and buying copy parts, and if there are people here who are genuinely against it and vocal about the legal issues when it's right here in this forum, which coincidentally has been sponsored on several occasions by replica neck suppliers.

Thoughts?
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post #2 of 72 (permalink) Old 02-24-2010, 05:39 PM
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Re: Fakes versus replicas versus customs

Moved to Chat
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post #3 of 72 (permalink) Old 02-24-2010, 05:47 PM
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Re: Fakes versus replicas versus customs

Now you know you're just trying to stirr things up again


IMO

A fake is a guitar made to deceive.

Chibanez, of course.

Customs that are not built by Ibanez but with an Ibanez logo on the headstock, also fakes. It may not deceive the true fanatics that know every model by heart, but, it will fool others, and what was the reason to brand it an Ibanez anyway? It's not because you want anybody to think it's a Jackson! Build your customs, and then brand it with some cool logo that IS NOT Ibanez.

Customs branded with any personalized non Ibanez logo are OK, and a true expression of personality, but still based on an Ibanez design. Which if you really want my opinion [and nope, nobody asked for it], why base it on an Ibanez design to begin with? If it's a custom, make it your own.
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post #4 of 72 (permalink) Old 02-24-2010, 05:56 PM
 
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Re: Fakes versus replicas versus customs

I own a jem 7vw and recently built a custom build jem buying several genuine ibanez parts i.e. edge trem, locking nut, machine heads ect ect ect. I even purchased what was a totaly knackered 77fp neck that had been broken. I repaired the neck and did a full refret. The only thing that is not genuine is the swirled body. If I was to sell this guitar. I would most deffinatly tell the buyer about the replica ibanez body. Im very proud of my guitar that I built I play her all the time and would not sell her.
I dont see the comparison with my guitar and the cheap blatent ripp off chibanez guitars that dont even have a single component manufactured by ibanez fitted to them.

If you purchased a volkswagon golf motor car and replaced the wheels with big flash after market alloy wheels does that mean the car is no longer a volkswagon golf?????????

another point, Do these custom guitar builders put ibanez serial numbers on their own necks????? ..................... thought not.
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post #5 of 72 (permalink) Old 02-24-2010, 06:01 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Fakes versus replicas versus customs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich View Post
Now you know you're just trying to stirr things up again
No, I'm really not. I just wonder why people get so upset about one custom (I mean, aside from it's outrageous price tag) and not, for example, ET Guitars who have SEVERAL copies available as "custom models" available on their website. Sponsor or not, they're just JEM fakes. Why aren't they under attack? What about everyone who bought necks from Jeremy at LGM back in the day? What about Glen's abalone swirl?


Quote:
IMO

A fake is a guitar made to deceive.

Chibanez, of course.
See, to me, those are different. Those are guitars of questionable quality masquerading as something else just to get our money. They're priced low so they seem like a bargain, but they're completely useless.

What about an Ibanez RG neck that's been retrofitted with a vine inlay?

Quote:
Customs that are not built by Ibanez but with an Ibanez logo on the headstock, also fakes. It may not deceive the true fanatics that know every model by heart, but, it will fool others, and what was the reason to brand it an Ibanez anyway? It's not because you want anybody to think it's a Jackson! Build your customs, and then brand it with some cool logo that IS NOT Ibanez.

Customs branded with any personalized non Ibanez logo are OK, and a true expression of personality, but still based on an Ibanez design. Which if you really want my opinion [and nope, nobody asked for it], why base it on an Ibanez design to begin with? If it's a custom, make it your own.
Well, that's just what I'm wondering. A lot of people here, a LOT of us, have supported purchasing counterfeit parts. I mean, I want to build a FTLOG replica and will probably have to have a replica neck built. Would I be under attack because someone else didn't like my version of the guitar? Is it legal? (no)

Wouldn't any copy of an Ibanez design be considered illegal, not just headstock shape? And what about reapplying the Ibanez logo to an RG neck that someone has modified to look like a JEM neck?

As an aside, thanks Jim777 for moving this, but I kinda wanted it in the JEM/UV section, since it directly applies to JEM and Universe copies. But then, I'm not in charge.
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post #6 of 72 (permalink) Old 02-24-2010, 06:09 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Fakes versus replicas versus customs

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnyboy mills View Post
I dont see the comparison with my guitar and the cheap blatent ripp off chibanez guitars that dont even have a single component manufactured by ibanez fitted to them.
Well, the other poster's opinion was that they are equally damaging to Ibanez, and the value of our genuine JEMs and UVs.

Quote:
Do these custom guitar builders put ibanez serial numbers on their own necks????? ..................... thought not.
Ibanez didn't use to either. They only started that in the early 1990s.
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post #7 of 72 (permalink) Old 02-24-2010, 06:38 PM
 
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Re: Fakes versus replicas versus customs

I completely agree with you dcord, I was about to comment on the other thread until it was closed. I only think that a custom should be considered illegal if it is sold and advertised as a legitimate Ibanez. I see nothing wrong with making a custom for a players benefit, it allows you to make precisely what you want in a guitar without having to modify one. I don't even see a problem with putting an ibanez sticker on the headstock, unless it is then used to advertise the guitar as such, the builder should be able to do whatever he wants - its his guitar.

Also I get extremely aggravated when people (like the poster you referred to from the other thread) claim that all custom guitars are cheap fakes and are worth no more if not less than the price of the parts. The Jem Im making is pure ibanez parts- except for the body, which is aftermarket, but come on- its not like Ibanez has any special wood supplier that Im aware of, you are capable of finding just as good quality wood elsewhere. It is being put together by a great local luthier who know his Ibanezes inside and out. Now, given its not an authentic Ibanez and I dont intend to advertise it as such, I believe it will preform just as well as an authentic Ibanez and is not even close in comparison to those Chibanezes. There are many a custom guitars that are just as good as authentic ones, and some that can even outperform the real thing if made just right.
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post #8 of 72 (permalink) Old 02-24-2010, 07:13 PM
 
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Re: Fakes versus replicas versus customs

I don't think there's anything wrong with making a custom. But I do think it's wrong for people to build a guitar from scratch, even if using Ibanez necks, getting a body made and calling it a Jem just because they've had a monkey grip cut into it. Well it's not a Jem, just a custom guitar with maybe an Ibanez neck.
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post #9 of 72 (permalink) Old 02-24-2010, 07:28 PM
 
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Re: Fakes versus replicas versus customs

I agree 100% with Rich
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post #10 of 72 (permalink) Old 02-24-2010, 07:34 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Fakes versus replicas versus customs

I opened this thread because I think eviltwin raised a very important point in the other thread.

Quote:
I'm just trying to convince you that your defense of this thing and the seller is unwise.
An apologetic stance towards fakes and replicas as well as the shops who sell them is naive at best.
In the long run it's detrimental to the value of the Ibanez brand in general and our Jems in particular.
Which is why I think that as a community we should be very critical of these abominations.
I think this is paramount to his argument. We should be critical of these guitars. I'm just curious if there are more people who agree with this. Then, I wonder if those people "draw the line" if they think the customizer did a good job or not.

And to Ant1981: Is it fair to call the guitar an Ibanez if it has an Ibanez neck? Back in the old days we just recognized that the "Fender" in the corner of the pawnshop was a Strat neck on a homemade body. It doesn't make the neck any less quality just because someone changed out the tuners or repainted it.

Personally, I draw the line at copies intended to rip me off. A custom with an Ibanez headstock doesn't bother me as much as it probably should.
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post #11 of 72 (permalink) Old 02-24-2010, 07:38 PM
 
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Re: Fakes versus replicas versus customs

Putting a decal on it is abusing the Ibanez company. If it is sold then that is illegal enough in the U.K. If you build your own then you should observe copyright laws. If I were to call myself Steve Vai when I gig with his own Naked Tracks I'd be freuding the venue, ticket sellers, Steve Vai and his fans. It's like some ppl don't grow up and use decals on cheaper imitations to fool the crowd - come on. Would you be that type who also puts GTi stickers on their Golf 1.4?
If they are so talented at even making their own then I pity them for copying another design that is actually copyrighted.

If this thread is closed then that's an immoral act.
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post #12 of 72 (permalink) Old 02-24-2010, 07:45 PM
 
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Re: Fakes versus replicas versus customs

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcord View Post

And to Ant1981: Is it fair to call the guitar an Ibanez if it has an Ibanez neck? Back in the old days we just recognized that the "Fender" in the corner of the pawnshop was a Strat neck on a homemade body. It doesn't make the neck any less quality just because someone changed out the tuners or repainted it.
Never mentioned anything about the quality of the neck. I said, an Ibanez neck on a body that's been made to look like a Jem body, because they've had a monkey grip cut into it, then passing it off as a Jem, when it's not a Jem. It's a custom that's made to look like one.
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post #13 of 72 (permalink) Old 02-24-2010, 07:47 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Fakes versus replicas versus customs

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacMusica View Post
Putting a decal on it is abusing the Ibanez company. If it is sold then that is illegal enough in the U.K. If you build your own then you should observe copyright laws. If I were to call myself Steve Vai when I gig with his own Naked Tracks I'd be freuding the venue, ticket sellers, Steve Vai and his fans. It's like some ppl don't grow up and use decals on cheaper imitations to fool the crowd - come on. Would you be that type who also puts GTi stickers on their Golf 1.4?
If they are so talented at even making their own then I pity them for copying another design that is actually copyrighted.

If this thread is closed then that's an immoral act.
Here's the rub, then. This forum is sponsored by a company that deals extensively in providing Ibanez copy necks and bodies to the community. Aren't they committing illegal copyright infringement? How does that apply to us who frequent this board, aren't we supporting it?

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of being able to buy an Ibanez style neck and body for a project. But where is the fire and "hatred toward fakes" that we saw in the other thread when we post our copy JEMs on here?
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post #14 of 72 (permalink) Old 02-24-2010, 07:50 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Fakes versus replicas versus customs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ant1981 View Post
Never mentioned anything about the quality of the neck. I said, an Ibanez neck on a body that's been made to look like a Jem body, because they've had a monkey grip cut into it, then passing it off as a Jem, when it's not a Jem. It's a custom that's made to look like one.
You're absolute right. But is it still an Ibanez? What if you replace all the hardware with aftermarket parts? The guy in the other thread didn't seem to think so.

It's just this gray area, and I got a lot of animosity directed at me for defending it.
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post #15 of 72 (permalink) Old 02-24-2010, 07:56 PM
 
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Re: Fakes versus replicas versus customs

You're missing it again.

I said, it's not a JEM, it's just a custom guitar made with some Ibanez parts. 'THAT' never left the Ibanez factory as a Jem, so it's certainly not one now.
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