Brand New Jem 77FP Stress Crack in neck joint - Page 3 - Jemsite
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post #31 of 64 (permalink) Old 10-17-2003, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trev
Maybe I should have bought the guitar from you Rich! Out of interest (forgive me if the answer is elsewhere on the site - I'm a newcomer) why didn't Ibanez go with the AANJ on the Floral?
Wouldn't have made any difference, except in purchase price. I sure can't guarantee none of the ones I'll have won't develop a NJFC. Having said that I haven't seen one made since 99' that did develop a crack.

I believe the answer was the FP was always to be kept a classic in original spec.
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post #32 of 64 (permalink) Old 10-17-2003, 04:42 PM
 
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Rich,

First of all, I respect the dealers and all of their operating costs. But this guitar was purchased in the UK, and I believe their prices are extremely high based on distributor markup. Second, the dealer shouldn't have delivered the guitar to the customer with a defect in the first place. I find it ironic that you bring this up, as every time there is a problem with a guitar you meticuously correct it on behalf of your business and customer service model. These corrections take your time which is much more valuable than offering someone a 10% discount on their next purchase or 3 free sets of strings. So maybe it sounded like I implied asking for $100's of dollars but the true spirit of my suggestion was to enhance customer service from consumer to manufacturer. Sorry for any confusion.

Finally, PRS bolt on's don't have this problem Obviously, I'm saying this PRS stuff to get your goat, so don't take it seriously

John
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post #33 of 64 (permalink) Old 10-17-2003, 05:07 PM
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I can respect that, but in a "limited's" situation there isn't a whole lot of correcting that can be done.

Now, when you find a mahogony slab that develops a neck joint crack you've got more problems than the joint! We're talking about basswood of course, far far down the hardness chain from mahogony
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post #34 of 64 (permalink) Old 10-17-2003, 05:08 PM
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if a guitar has a higher cost in the UK, the dealer pays more in the UK. Business 101. It's not like the UK dealers are just selling for $1000 more profit per guitar than here in the USA.

As Rich said, it's not good advice really to speak to ibanez with your wallet in this case. This will just cause them to raises prices 20-30% to accomidate such misguded customer demands. That is the first thing they'd do.

Ibanez buyers in general need to grasp reality better. The price is NOT reflective of overall quality relative to any other brand guitar. They're a bargain compared to equally as mediocre product such as PRS/Gibson/etc. Only a fanatic would argue otherwise... glen
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post #35 of 64 (permalink) Old 10-17-2003, 05:36 PM
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Conversely, even though they pay more, UK dealers are giving much less margin as discount to the customers. Much complained about here for a long time now.
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post #36 of 64 (permalink) Old 10-17-2003, 05:50 PM Thread Starter
 
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I find it difficult that the line is being blurred between price and quality. There is obviously a serious disparity between prices throughout the world yet the quality of the instrument, wherever you buy it is the same. I do not believe that it is a misguided customer demand to ask for a brand new (expensive) instrument to be without flaws. I get a sneaky feeling (and I might be wrong/ I might be right) that some people have some kind of fear about addressing QA issues with Ibanez?
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post #37 of 64 (permalink) Old 10-17-2003, 05:55 PM
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I've never had a problem attacking the company when they do stupid sh!t. The disparity has ALOT to do with the high import taxes imposed in the UK, currency dynamics, much that has nothing to do with guitars in any way
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post #38 of 64 (permalink) Old 10-17-2003, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trev
I find it difficult that the line is being blurred between price and quality. There is obviously a serious disparity between prices throughout the world yet the quality of the instrument, wherever you buy it is the same.
That is global marketing in a global economy. Has ZERO to do with ibanez.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trev
I do not believe that it is a misguided customer demand to ask for a brand new (expensive) instrument to be without flaws. I get a sneaky feeling (and I might be wrong/ I might be right) that some people have some kind of fear about addressing QA issues with Ibanez?
Your sneaky feeling is totally incorrect. You are obviously very new here

Look, this discussion is a waste of time. Either return the guitar or let it go already. Soliciting 25 more opinions and having alot of debate on the matter will not make a difference. Good luck either way. ...glen
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post #39 of 64 (permalink) Old 10-17-2003, 07:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Ibanez buyers in general need to grasp reality better. The price is NOT reflective of overall quality relative to any other brand guitar. They're a bargain compared to equally as mediocre product such as PRS/Gibson/etc. Only a fanatic would argue otherwise... glen
Business 101 is contradicted by the suggestion that if customer's cannot speak about a company's products then they have no impact on the guitar market. The major part of the retail market is the consumer.

Quote:
As Rich said, it's not good advice really to speak to ibanez with your wallet in this case. This will just cause them to raises prices 20-30% to accomidate such misguded customer demands. That is the first thing they'd do.
I'm not an expert on guitar building, but my degree in engineering and experience owning 22 Jems suggests this happened in shipping. So maybe $.10 cents of packing around the horns and pocket might prevent the fracture....but then again maybe not. I didn't mean to imply that a redesign of the guitar was the answer....only that a new guitar is generally recognized as being delivered to the consumer free of defects.

Quote:
Ibanez buyers in general need to grasp reality better. The price is NOT reflective of overall quality relative to any other brand guitar. They're a bargain compared to equally as mediocre product such as PRS/Gibson/etc. Only a fanatic would argue otherwise... glen
I've spent enough time, money and energy to have an appreciation for guitars that also suggests the best guitars aren't always the highest price guitars. I have a tremendous admiration for Paul Reed Smith (who's bolt on guitars are the retail price equivalent of a JEM) based on their attempt to maintain quality as production grows significantly and their constant focus, attention and respect for their customers.

If you have a moment read this thread from the prs forum

http://209.151.81.189/board/showthre...threadid=37713

I don't post the link to say PRS is better than Ibanez, lord knows I don't want to start that debate. But they focus energy on their guitar owners as demonstrated over and over again by the players in their community and their interaction with the factory, it's dealers and their employees. For those unfamiliar, Joe Knaggs, was former head or Production and now the leads the construction of their hand built 'Private Stock' instruments. I can't even order a neck from Hoshino, PA without a major problem or major hassle. If you have a few bucks order the DVD from PRS's website
that provides a factory tour (it's free minus pricey shipping of like $8.00).

My last comment on PRS is that they introduced four options and a new guitar model based on feedback from the player's. How many options has Ibanez provided to us after we spend our hard earned cash on their guitars. I don't remember asking for a floral anniversary or a signed backplate. Maybe Ibanez demonstrates this type of service over in Japan at headquarters, then again maybe they do not. It's just not good business to lose sight of your customers and their feedback on your instruments.

Finally, for those who do not know me, I'm an fan of Ibanez products and think they are good guitars for the money. I also own quite a few PRS's and believe them to be amazing guitars as well. In fact, the market in general has a tremendous amount of instruments to offer that are tremendous quality and value. Anyway Glen, I miss these kind of discussions with you and Rich....Hope all is well. Too bad you aren't coming to Glenside...then you could stop by and play a PRS or too
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post #40 of 64 (permalink) Old 10-17-2003, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johncowan

My last comment on PRS is that they introduced four options and a new guitar model based on feedback from the player's. How many options has Ibanez provided to us after we spend our hard earned cash on their guitars.
Uh, exactly how many models does PRS offer? Oh, a single cut, and a double cut. *2* [no, I'm not considering derivatives of those like Private Stock, how many derivative RG's are there?1] and exactly how many models are in the Ibanez line? All tailored to meet a different segment of the market, and budget.
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post #41 of 64 (permalink) Old 10-17-2003, 07:45 PM
 
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Uh, exactly how many models does PRS offer? Oh, a single cut, and a double cut. *2*
Check the website for that or buy the DVD of their factory if you are interested. If you consider body cuts the criteria then I believe it's somewhere between 8 and 12 standard production models, but my TV show is about to come on so I have to run to cook dinner in time to view it and stuff my face with food. I'll count for you later, maybe you can post your criteria for models between 8-9 EST

Actually, I'm not sure I understand your point. Are you suggesting the more models you offer the more 'out of touch' you should be with your customers?

I will also mention that they produce 80,000 plus guitars a year not including Korean production. All of them are available with various finish options and features.

So if you are saying Ibanez is so busy producing millions of guitars that they don't have time to listen or care to offer options and service then I agree with your point
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post #42 of 64 (permalink) Old 10-17-2003, 08:08 PM
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Ibanez produces under 60,000 MIJ. And exactly how are they not responding to their customers?!
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post #43 of 64 (permalink) Old 10-17-2003, 09:19 PM
 
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Ibanez produces under 60,000 MIJ. And exactly how are they not responding to their customers?!
Ok, I'm still not clear on the point you were making about PRS, but anyway I don't feel like they respond to customer's as well as other guitar companies do these days and chose PRS as an example.

I also don't want to hi-jack this thread either from the original topic. Let's just say my wallet will do the voting for me and it won't be spending money on their products in the near future.
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post #44 of 64 (permalink) Old 10-17-2003, 09:43 PM
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i wish the PA G3 show was not a wed night good discussion here though.

i think rich's point is the more you sell the less specialized you can be. make more which lowers costs & increases effeciency. let dealers sort out the expected percent of blems/defects. Ferrari vs Ford type service (not a great analogy but you get the point).

ibanez is UNresponsive to the USA marketplace. It seems we're the red-headed stepchild in direct comparison to their domestic market (JPN).

PRS has SUPERB marketing & service... i mean they are given musicians worldwide axes to play at no cost and back up their product. they're also a USA company which is a far cry from a "japanese company". ibanez on the other hand has an older product endorsement methodology that is eroding their market share... their sales have declined in the past decade, unlike PRS so this is obvious stuff. but the units produced is nothing to sneeze at, as Rich pointed out.

but still, to compare the companies is really apples vs. oranges aside from both being fruit (guitar makers).

the surface cracks are due to any of these factors IMHO: temperature, cure time, packagin, shipping, wood type & physical stress/tension. PRS has a shorter scale and thus less tension... nevermind a different neck pocket/design.

i'm not debating the cost effectiveness of buying a new 2003 JEM77FP, at any price or in comparison to any other guitar. i'm just saying this heel surface crack is normal and to be expected with these axes - and i wouldn't lose a wink of sleep thinking about it. If you do, the axe is probably not for you (not at that price anyways - find a cheaper used one w/ the crack already) ...glen
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post #45 of 64 (permalink) Old 10-17-2003, 10:57 PM
 
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Well said
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