Fractal JS swirl - Page 7 - Jemsite
Ibanez JEM, UV, JS & Other Signature Models For discussion of Ibanez JEM, Universe and JS (Satriani) guitars only.

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post #91 of 186 (permalink) Old 05-27-2003, 03:17 PM
 
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First of all, comparing the blatant copying an original piece of artwork to the lineage of Ibanez' guitar designs is a little silly.

Ibanez' models have evolved to the point that they are their own beast. I'm sorry, but my JEM7VWH could not be further from my 60's Strat. They're both wood and they both have double cutaways. That's about it.

If Ibanez still used the Fender body style, headstock shape and spagetti script logo, then your argument may actually have some relevance. But, as it is, those things have all changed due to some serious lawsuits. Ibanez was a MUCH different company in the 70's. Besides, you'd have to accuse every other major manufacturer of the same thing:

-Tom Anderson: Strat & Tele rip-offs
-PRS: Ripping off Fender & Gibson and melding the two together
-Jackson/Charvel: Strat ripoffs (more lawsuit fun!)

In regards to the subject at hand: no, it wouldn't make sense to say that ANY swirled finish should be considered infringement, since (at least to my knowledge) the actual "swirled finish" is not copyrighted. As anybody who does the finishes can tell you, it's an art form that has existed for centuries. Darren @ ATD was simply the one to bring it into our culture and, more importantly, to apply it to guitars.
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post #92 of 186 (permalink) Old 05-27-2003, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stratoskier
I stand guilty on the inconsistent, discretionary logic flaw. I catch myself constantly applying one set of rules to one issue, and a different (usually less stringent) set of rules to some other matter. That's how most of us stumble through the day. Ah, but I wax philosophic.
I think most fall into this category where they're only bothered by what they consider important, to them
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post #93 of 186 (permalink) Old 05-27-2003, 03:42 PM
 
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Hmm, an awful lot of those RX and GRX models sure look like a strat to me (logo and headstock notwithstanding). And the new SZ520 has an awful lot in common with the Schecter C-1 Classic introduced a couple of years ago.

You're certainly right: ALL of the manufacturers constantly gauge what the others are doing and make adjustments in their lineup. I'm glad they do: we get a lot more variety for it. I happen to think Ibanez does it better than anyone else (at all levels of their line), whether it's a breakthrough innovation of their own design, or something modeled vaguely after the work of another manufactuer. That's why I'm a JemSiter.

Bert
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post #94 of 186 (permalink) Old 05-28-2003, 12:39 AM
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lets stay 100% on topic and kindly take any offtopic discussion/debate to PM/email. Thanks ...glen
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post #95 of 186 (permalink) Old 05-28-2003, 01:54 AM
 
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Couple of things,

Even the best vinyl printers still are printers, the colors will never look like actual paint, and the image 99% of the time will look like a printed image whether it's pixellated, or you can see the print lines. However, it's still a kewl idea. I still would rather pay for a swirl though.

Couple of problems that can be forseen.

1. Your finish bond will never be better than your vinyl medium to the guitar body, the self adhesive vinyl does break down eventually. We used to use a vinyl that was basically a tube and could be shrunk down around the object like heat shrink tubing.

2. There are very few Clear coats that will bond well to vinyl without attacking it.

3. If you wanted to use this process to reproduce say the PAW swirl, you are breaking copyright as every ATD swirl is copywritten (I don't know if Herc does this as well, but I'll assume he does) so making a PAW replica would be illegal.


As for swirling not being an art form? well, I guess airbrushing or handpainting isn't either then. If you look at an ATD swirl, you have control in the swirl, Darren can make his paint do everything but sit up and sing, and maybe he can do that too. But all in all, it's art,
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post #96 of 186 (permalink) Old 05-28-2003, 02:03 AM
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Ones that handle enough swirls will realize how little bond there is between the swrirl itself and the primer, and the clearcoat to the swirl. None of it has a good bite.

All you've got to do with vinyl is dust coat first to kill the attack.

Swirls are definately art, but art is in the eye of the beholder
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post #97 of 186 (permalink) Old 05-28-2003, 03:04 AM
 
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not totally true rich, laquers will kill most vinyls even with a dust coat, poly urethane seems to be ok, but the bond to the vinyl is sketchy at best as well
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post #98 of 186 (permalink) Old 05-28-2003, 03:23 AM
 
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Quick question: is the vinyl easily removable?
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post #99 of 186 (permalink) Old 05-28-2003, 09:18 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MehYam
Quick question: is the vinyl easily removable?
Well the longer its on the stickyer it is but you can remove it. It will not come off all in one piece.
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post #100 of 186 (permalink) Old 05-28-2003, 09:38 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Rich
Swirls are definately art, but art is in the eye of the beholder
100% true, especially in this case. I wouldn't go so far as to say that the vinyl/fractal swirl method isn't art...simply that I don't care for it. That's the beauty of "art"- put a work of art in a room with 100 people and you'll most likely get 100 different opinions and 100 different interpretations of it.
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post #101 of 186 (permalink) Old 05-31-2003, 07:37 AM
 
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this is getting stupid. the discussion of "real" swirls vs this fabric (or whatever) swirl made with the help of a computer. Sure, a "real" swirl will get you a totally original swirl pattern. there is virtually no chance that there will ever be another guitar just like it. But this can be done with a computer as well. a computer can give you a randomized pattern if that is what you want. but you also have options you don't have with a "real" swirl. you could, for example, have a screaming face blending in with the swirl. I'd like to see anyone doing that with a "real" swirl and getting as good a result as you could with a computer.

why is everyone so negative about this? is it because you spent a fortune getting your guitars painted by a pro and now realize that there is a less expensive way of turning a guitar into a piece of art? because it doesn't matter if it's made by hand with a pencil or with a computer; it's still a piece of art that someone put a lot of work into to get it right.
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post #102 of 186 (permalink) Old 05-31-2003, 01:05 PM
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If you ever held a good DNA you'd know one thing, anything printed on vinyl will never be a shadow of a real swirl, and I've seen the most advanced in thermal vinyl printing. It's not even close enough to compare.
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post #103 of 186 (permalink) Old 05-31-2003, 08:18 PM Thread Starter
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Here's some updated pics. Shes done.





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post #104 of 186 (permalink) Old 05-31-2003, 10:20 PM
 
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I think it's cool. Perhaps not a "true swirl", or the "real thing", but a neat concept. Just my $.02.
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post #105 of 186 (permalink) Old 05-31-2003, 11:41 PM
 
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I'm not a fan, but..it IS better than 90% of the Herc swirls I've seen
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acoustic guitar , atd swirl , clear coat , darren wilson , dot inlay , dot inlays , double cutaway , electric guitar , guitar body , guitar shop , headstock shape , herc fede , herc swirl , ibanez guitars , joe satriani , pickup ring , pickup rings , steve vai

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