Jem Body with Kahler - Jemsite
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post #1 of 43 (permalink) Old 08-31-2010, 12:45 PM Thread Starter
 
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Jem Body with Kahler

Just found this video on the tube Special Kahler Trem on a Jem Body

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cpRZ9AeTG0

Like the kahler, looks pretty cool. Not liking the special trem arm, he sells the bodies with the route. Maybe i should get one

Enjoy (or not)


if its an old hat please accept my apologies (or not)
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post #2 of 43 (permalink) Old 08-31-2010, 02:26 PM
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Re: Jem Body with Kahler

I absolutely hate it!



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post #3 of 43 (permalink) Old 08-31-2010, 02:59 PM
 
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Re: Jem Body with Kahler

Kahler routed RG body it says, so as to "not ruin your original". Well, he said it....
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post #4 of 43 (permalink) Old 09-02-2010, 07:44 PM
 
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Re: Jem Body with Kahler

I must agree with Alaska

"I absolutely hate it!"

Jem is not a Jem without low pro/edge pro tremolo!
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post #5 of 43 (permalink) Old 09-02-2010, 11:30 PM
 
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Re: Jem Body with Kahler

Actually this looks more elegant and much more proper.

What is wrong with it? Haters give no reasoning. The bridge is totally proportional to the rest of the instrument and matches the color of the lo-pro! And ITS A KAHLER! Kahlers are the worlds most premium bridges! This is a 400 dollar bridge!

Why go lo pro when you can just lower the rollers to be as low as hell if you want!
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post #6 of 43 (permalink) Old 09-02-2010, 11:44 PM
 
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Re: Jem Body with Kahler

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Originally Posted by FarBeyond View Post
Actually this looks more elegant and much more proper.

What is wrong with it? Haters give no reasoning. The bridge is totally proportional to the rest of the instrument and matches the color of the lo-pro! And ITS A KAHLER! Kahlers are the worlds most premium bridges! This is a 400 dollar bridge!

Why go lo pro when you can just lower the rollers to be as low as hell if you want!
Most of us expect our $1600 guitars to stay in tune.

Kahler has always had a nice bridge design, but they've ALWAYS failed on the "stay in tune" aspect. Floyds (and Edge & Lo-Pro Edge trems by extension) stay in tune a LOT better than Kahlers.
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post #7 of 43 (permalink) Old 09-03-2010, 02:34 AM
 
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Re: Jem Body with Kahler

With a lil bit tweaking and playing around you can get kahler bridge to stay in tune just fine.. If you can't set up kahler properly it's not the bridges fault.
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post #8 of 43 (permalink) Old 09-03-2010, 07:04 AM
 
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Re: Jem Body with Kahler

Yes you can put one on a jem and have it work.

http://www.vai.com/Machines/guitarpages/guitar019.html
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post #9 of 43 (permalink) Old 09-03-2010, 09:29 AM
 
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Re: Jem Body with Kahler

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Originally Posted by dcord View Post
Most of us expect our $1600 guitars to stay in tune.

Kahler has always had a nice bridge design, but they've ALWAYS failed on the "stay in tune" aspect. Floyds (and Edge & Lo-Pro Edge trems by extension) stay in tune a LOT better than Kahlers.
Where are you getting your information? From the guy on youtube doing all the phony comparison videos? The same guy that claims that tilting the Kahler cam forward DECREASES spring tension? LOL. 5:22 at this link:

http://www.youtube.com/user/dmometal...29/IwfAecVtES0

As an owner of 4 guitars with flawless Kahlers, I find it very irritating that people continute to spread these falsehoods about the most premium trems you can buy. What you are saying is a myth that has been refuted over and over by experts and you simply do not know how to set it up properly if you claim this nonsense.

The Kahler is like an F1 car - high maintenance for its high performance and they are more expensive than Floyds for a reason. And Frost storm is right. In fiddling with it you can get it to always stay in tune. But more specifically, you need to keep the rollers low to avoid the friction, (its designed for low action anyways), and rollers well lubed and clean. And the rod through the cam cannot be too tight. Jeez, Kahler needs to work on their marketing and proper use warnings because there are too many people who do know know how to use them out there.

In addition, here are more reasons why I won't touch a Floyd or Lo pro/Edge, not even with a ten foot pole, and why Kahlers are coming back and going to make the following unwanted features of Floyds go out for good this time:

-Huge hole routed into the guitar which takes so much of the tone out of the instrument... leave that tone in there damn-it
-noisy as hell (the slightly longer than normal sustain is not worth all that stupid spring resonance, and if you dampen the springs, then sustain and flutter time are affected anyways - its that dumb resonance in the springs causing the longer sustain regardless - and all that noise coming through)
-palm mutes go sharp if you press a bit too hard (adding one unnecessary thing to think about if you play more animated on stage)
-most floyds have little range of action with the whammy bar, or if set up for large range on dives then pulls have little action, or if set up for large pull range, then dives have little range
-fine tuners have too little torque and not sensitive enough
-cannot adjust string spacing
-cannot adjust the height of one saddle independently of another - all must go up or down with adjusting action
-action changes with dives or pulls
-string breakages are catastrophic and cannot continue song
-setups take too long
-cannot globally adjust tuning really quickly without a total re-setup
-locking the trem to fixed mode cannot be done instantly - it requires time to mod to fixed mode with a block at the back or to floating mode
-saddles are only 2-way adjustable (and only with unwanted shims can they be 4-way - but thats not proper
-dirt and grime easily accumulates too fast
-most floyds require too much effort to dive and pull
-termol-nos and similar devices eliminate the long flutter (which was the only usefulness of the Floyd to begin with
-viciously harsh whammy bar action makes floyds go out of tune and stay in tune perfectly on Kahlers
-takes more effort to use the whammy bar
- and many more

Last edited by FarBeyond; 09-03-2010 at 09:41 AM.
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post #10 of 43 (permalink) Old 09-03-2010, 12:27 PM
 
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Re: Jem Body with Kahler

Quote:
Originally Posted by FarBeyond View Post
Where are you getting your information? From the guy on youtube doing all the phony comparison videos? The same guy that claims that tilting the Kahler cam forward DECREASES spring tension? LOL. 5:22 at this link:

http://www.youtube.com/user/dmometal...29/IwfAecVtES0

As an owner of 4 guitars with flawless Kahlers, I find it very irritating that people continute to spread these falsehoods about the most premium trems you can buy. What you are saying is a myth that has been refuted over and over by experts and you simply do not know how to set it up properly if you claim this nonsense.

The Kahler is like an F1 car - high maintenance for its high performance and they are more expensive than Floyds for a reason. And Frost storm is right. In fiddling with it you can get it to always stay in tune. But more specifically, you need to keep the rollers low to avoid the friction, (its designed for low action anyways), and rollers well lubed and clean. And the rod through the cam cannot be too tight. Jeez, Kahler needs to work on their marketing and proper use warnings because there are too many people who do know know how to use them out there.

In addition, here are more reasons why I won't touch a Floyd or Lo pro/Edge, not even with a ten foot pole, and why Kahlers are coming back and going to make the following unwanted features of Floyds go out for good this time:

-Huge hole routed into the guitar which takes so much of the tone out of the instrument... leave that tone in there damn-it
-noisy as hell (the slightly longer than normal sustain is not worth all that stupid spring resonance, and if you dampen the springs, then sustain and flutter time are affected anyways - its that dumb resonance in the springs causing the longer sustain regardless - and all that noise coming through)
-palm mutes go sharp if you press a bit too hard (adding one unnecessary thing to think about if you play more animated on stage)
-most floyds have little range of action with the whammy bar, or if set up for large range on dives then pulls have little action, or if set up for large pull range, then dives have little range
-fine tuners have too little torque and not sensitive enough
-cannot adjust string spacing
-cannot adjust the height of one saddle independently of another - all must go up or down with adjusting action
-action changes with dives or pulls
-string breakages are catastrophic and cannot continue song
-setups take too long
-cannot globally adjust tuning really quickly without a total re-setup
-locking the trem to fixed mode cannot be done instantly - it requires time to mod to fixed mode with a block at the back or to floating mode
-saddles are only 2-way adjustable (and only with unwanted shims can they be 4-way - but thats not proper
-dirt and grime easily accumulates too fast
-most floyds require too much effort to dive and pull
-termol-nos and similar devices eliminate the long flutter (which was the only usefulness of the Floyd to begin with
-viciously harsh whammy bar action makes floyds go out of tune and stay in tune perfectly on Kahlers
-takes more effort to use the whammy bar
- and many more
This isn't my opinion or some story I "read on the internet". This is the result of 25 years of playing and working on different guitars with different trems. My absolute favorite thing is when people automatically assume you "just don't know how to set one up." It's the same argument that will clear up EVERY one of those complaints about Floyds with one exception - Floyds *still* offer better tuning stability.

More effort to use the whammy bar? Are you effing kidding me?

I had a Kahler pro, one of the originals, on one of my guitars back in the early nineties. It was a great trem, but didn't stay in tune. I liked it's adjustability and I liked the smoothness of the cam. I don't need "a guy on youtube" to tell me what I already know - they don't stay in tune. NO single locking trem will stay in tune like a double-locking system. The winding on the ball end of the string WILL stretch and continue to stretch until the string breaks.

A Kahler is a floating tremolo system, therefore it's subject to the same rules as a Floyd regarding broken strings, spring balance for different tunings etc. To suggest differently is a flat out lie.

I have T-nos on three of my Ibanez guitars and they all flutter exactly as they did without one. That was one of Kev's intentions when he designed the T-no. So, yeah. Try again.

Your post is simply your long-winded opinion about how "hard" it is to keep a Floyd clean, or how "hard" it is to use the bar. I'm glad you like your Kahler. Go with it, I promise not to try to change your mind. Maybe try some strength training to help with depressing the trem on one of your "inferior" Edge guitars while you're at it or try washing your hands once in a while before you play.

And yeah, that "lifting the guitar by the bar until the strings go slack" trick people do with their Floyds? That makes the strings POP OUT of the bridge on a Kahler.
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post #11 of 43 (permalink) Old 09-03-2010, 12:40 PM
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Re: Jem Body with Kahler

Quote:
Originally Posted by FarBeyond View Post
What is wrong with it? Haters give no reasoning.
I hate lima beans, too--I don't need a reason to explain that either. I've owned a few Kahler equipped guitars since 1983, including my preproduction San Dimas Charvel. I don't like the look or feel. Yes, my Kahler stayed in tune when properly set up, but I just don't like them. To channel some George Carlin from the other side, "I don't like that! Is there a picture of it in the cookbook? I bet it don't look like that!" "How do you know you don't like it, if you've never...even..tried it?" "It came to me in a dream!" 'Nuff said!



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post #12 of 43 (permalink) Old 09-03-2010, 04:53 PM
 
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Re: Jem Body with Kahler

No problem, its a free country. Whatever floats your boat. But unfortunately your personal preference does not change the facts, nor can that preference change the night and day differences. Kahlers are amazing and tight as all hell. Meant for extremely tight playing.

But I have no problem with your preference - in a free country, people also have the choice to prefer and enjoy a Chrysler neon or honda civic over a Lamborghini, similar to this case with the preference for a Floyd over a Kahler, and as is the case in many other cases - for some unknown reason. But whatever tickles your fancy. I cannot argue with that. But absolute facts based on objective reasoning cannot be refuted if they are accurate right down to the tiniest spec.

People have some sort of strange attachment to a floyd rose which will never be changed, but I am very glad I could look at both objectively and I had no problem letting go of something I had every reason to deem absolutely useless, because I have made my mind detached to only go by objective facts.

Oh well, I guess stranger things exist, like some of the amazing guitar players out there still playing floyds. Unbelievable how they cannot let go!

As for which looks better, I have no preference and am neutral. But Floyd Rose is now barely hanging on for its life.
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post #13 of 43 (permalink) Old 09-03-2010, 05:06 PM
 
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Re: Jem Body with Kahler

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Originally Posted by FarBeyond View Post
No problem, its a free country. Whatever floats your boat. But unfortunately your personal preference does not change the facts, nor can that preference change the night and day differences. Kahlers are amazing and tight as all hell. Meant for extremely tight playing.

But I have no problem with your preference - in a free country, people also have the choice to prefer and enjoy a Chrysler neon or honda civic over a Lamborghini, similar to this case with the preference for a Floyd over a Kahler, and as is the case in many other cases - for some unknown reason. But whatever tickles your fancy. I cannot argue with that. But absolute facts based on objective reasoning cannot be refuted if they are accurate right down to the tiniest spec.

People have some sort of strange attachment to a floyd rose which will never be changed, but I am very glad I could look at both objectively and I had no problem letting go of something I had every reason to deem absolutely useless, because I have made my mind detached to only go by objective facts.

Oh well, I guess stranger things exist, like some of the amazing guitar players out there still playing floyds. Unbelievable how they cannot let go!

As for which looks better, I have no preference and am neutral. But Floyd Rose is now barely hanging on for its life.
LMFAO

Oh, that wasn't a joke post?

Here's a problem with your posts: You're stating your opinions as absolute facts. Then, you're saying I'm wrong because I have a different opinion based on my own experience. Your opinions are no better than mine and nothing, not one thing you said, is based on FACT. Except that you don't wash your hands often enough and the gunk builds up on Floyds but miraculously doesn't build up on Kahlers.

I don't dislike Kahlers. I like Fender trems too, and I can manage to get them to stay in tune just about as well as a Kahler with enough "fidgeting." But they don't preform nearly as well as Floyd-based trems in my experience. But I forgot, that's apparently not "objective reasoning." I do not in any way think Kahlers are useless. They just aren't useful to me. Your analogy is perfect - I don't have any use for a Lamborghini either, a Neon or Civic would be much more practical and probably more reliable in the real world.

So yeah, I prefer trems that stay in tune when I use them. The same way I prefer a car that runs well and can hold me, my GF, AND my guitar all at the same time.

Last edited by dcord; 09-03-2010 at 05:19 PM.
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post #14 of 43 (permalink) Old 09-03-2010, 05:25 PM
 
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Re: Jem Body with Kahler

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcord View Post
This isn't my opinion or some story I "read on the internet".


This is the result of 25 years of playing and working on different guitars with different trems.
Too bad you dont know what strings to use as will be show coming up:

Quote:
My absolute favorite thing is when people automatically assume you "just don't know how to set one up." It's the same argument that will clear up EVERY one of those complaints about Floyds with one exception - Floyds *still* offer better tuning stability.
You have not shown how they offer better tuning stability. There is a longer line of connections all the way to the back of the guitar and around huge routing - so physics will prove more non-stability.

Quote:
More effort to use the whammy bar? Are you effing kidding me?
Depends on the type of springs you use for the Kahler - the use of light ones makes it much more soft and accurate for whammy bar usage. Hard to get used to, but once you do, accuracy is tighter and more refined.

Quote:
I had a Kahler pro, one of the originals, on one of my guitars back in the early nineties. It was a great trem, but didn't stay in tune.
Not sure how those compare to the 2300 series. I refer to the 2300 series and guarantee this is not supposed to happen.

If they are similar models with identical mechanisms, then your problem was not supposed to happen either. I guarantee it. I went through the same issues until I mastered the trem - but an analogy is that you cannot expect a mechanic for a local auto shop to be able to automatically do a perfect job on his first BMW 8-series - which requres much more meticulousness and a much finer mastery of the machinery.

Quote:
they don't stay in tune. NO single locking trem will stay in tune like a double-locking system. The winding on the ball end of the string WILL stretch and continue to stretch until the string breaks.
Thats if you are using d'addario strings! lol. of course thats going to happen - youre using the wrong strings! SIT Kahler no break strings are the strings designed for use with Kahlers - they use a special bonding agent in addition to a second veneer for that area. Just like an formula 1 or indy car will not take the same fuel that a consumer vehicle would take.

I never said a Kahler does not have disadvantages. Yes normal strings will break faster than on a Floyd - (a perfect trem would be if the Kahler strings locked into the hooks by cutting the balls off as well). But you are focusing on an issue that will not affect tuning stability if you do everything 100% right for Kahler usage.

Quote:
A Kahler is a floating tremolo system, therefore it's subject to the same rules as a Floyd regarding broken strings, spring balance for different tunings etc. To suggest differently is a flat out lie.
You are spreading misinformation. The Kahler bridge does NOT float. Kahlers are bridges fixed to the body. I have never heard a more ridiculous proposition than what you have suggested. String breakages do not affect tuning nearly as drastically as on a floyd because of the ratio of the torque of the cam vs spring tension ratio. Try it. nd not to mention easy to adjust global tuning quick to finish the song off - not possible on a floyd unless you open the back cavity and get a screw drive. With a kahler you just quickly run your palm down the sensitive fine tuners - takes some getting used to but at least you can finish the song off. But most pros will have new strings for shows and this will not be an issue for neither system.

Quote:
I have T-nos on three of my Ibanez guitars and they all flutter exactly as they did without one. That was one of Kev's intentions when he designed the T-no. So, yeah. Try again.
Physically impossible to flutter as long.

Quote:
Your post is simply your long-winded opinion about how "hard" it is to keep a Floyd clean, or how "hard" it is to use the bar.
The fact remains it is not as accurate to use the floyd whammy action and there is significantly less torque and range.

Quote:
I'm glad you like your Kahler. Go with it, I promise not to try to change your mind. Maybe try some strength training to help with depressing the trem on one of your "inferior" Edge guitars while you're at it or try washing your hands once in a while before you play.
Its actually a matter of horrid unnatural restraint training - not necessary.

Quote:
And yeah, that "lifting the guitar by the bar until the strings go slack" trick people do with their Floyds? That makes the strings POP OUT of the bridge on a Kahler.
How so, the cage assembly is lifted and pushes the strings down against the rollers because you are lifting the angle from which the direction of the string points - enforcing a downwards vector, but only if you lift the strings off the roller tracks will that happen. PLease do not use selective omission in your reasoning. Most people prefer not lifting my guitar like that. You can go totally slack with the way the Kahler whammy bar was meant to be used. and once totally slack - the bridge will not go any further. With a floyd, range is severely limited regardless.
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post #15 of 43 (permalink) Old 09-03-2010, 05:40 PM
 
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Re: Jem Body with Kahler

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcord View Post
LMFAO

Oh, that wasn't a joke post?

Here's a problem with your posts: You're stating your opinions as absolute facts. Then, you're saying I'm wrong because I have a different opinion based on my own experience.
No, Im stating you are not correct because the physical operation of both systems says you are wrong. And because I spotted the fact that you are not using proper strings for a Kahler.

Quote:
Your opinions are no better than mine and nothing, not one thing you said, is based on FACT. Except that you don't wash your hands often enough and the gunk builds up on Floyds but miraculously doesn't build up on Kahlers.
Nothing I have said is based on any opinion whasoever as I even admit small issues with Kahlers but you have not admitted a single issue with Floyds making you come across as a bigot in this scenario. So again, I only used scientific facts.

And btw - I have not made any personal insults but you are by stating I do not wash my hands. And you are making reference to minor facts and then go as far as to say I have dirty hands to try to refute a very small issue regardless - - misrepresenting me and manipulating my stance to make it appear like I used that dirt buildup as my main argument when that was just a secondary point along the list. Nice try.

No, all I said was that its easier and quicker to take apart the Kahler parts to have easy access to be able to quickly clean them. Just like everything else about the bridge is a million times more efficient and quickly adjustable.

Quote:
I don't dislike Kahlers. I like Fender trems too, and I can manage to get them to stay in tune just about as well as a Kahler with enough "fidgeting." But they don't preform nearly as well as Floyd-based trems in my experience. But I forgot, that's apparently not "objective reasoning." I do not in any way think Kahlers are useless. They just aren't useful to me. Your analogy is perfect - I don't have any use for a Lamborghini either, a Neon or Civic would be much more practical and probably more reliable in the real world.
Please do not confuse opinions with objective facts. A fender bridge will instantly go out of tune with whammy bar usage. Completely useless for whammy bar usage.

Quote:
So yeah, I prefer trems that stay in tune when I use them. The same way I prefer a car that runs well and can hold me, my GF, AND my guitar all at the same time.
Sure, but nothing to do with performance. Your car and any creatures you place inside of it will perform much less efficiently than a Ferrari - in all aspect - turns, speed, braking - all lower performing than a ferrari - just like A floyd will perform lower than a Kahler with regards to many aspects. And the ferrari will attract finer specimens for the second seat.

I have shown how Kahlers do not go out of tune with neither bends nor whammy bar usage whereas Floyds are bound to always go more out of tune with bar usage - because of the long and inefficient spring system - - the double locking system is irrelevant with regards to that inefficient line. A double lock incorporated into the Kahler would be the best out of all - but the fact remains that the cam-based system is light years more efficient for its intended usage. It was designed BECAUSE of the floyd rose problems I have simply just repeated - what the experts and pros have proven a million times over and over again, and you just do not want to admit these irrefutable stance because of your colored lens with which you look at the comaprision.

In conclusion, the floyd and its long line of springs and connections of all those parts and massive block connection and is a long fishing rod you harshly struggle with to retrieve some mere tuna from a normally tranquil pond, wherease the Kahler is a short lever system enabling you to instantly grab the largest selection of sharks from vicious waters.

You have not demonstrated anything but a string breakage issue which i have shown to be worth dealing with and fixable if finely payed attention to - but you have not refuted the main points.

Last edited by FarBeyond; 09-03-2010 at 05:47 PM.
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