Thoughts on the PIA (The new JEM)? - Page 6 - Jemsite
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post #76 of 538 (permalink) Old 01-07-2020, 01:27 AM
 
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Re: Thoughts on the PIA (The new JEM)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoseki View Post
For me the original Edge was absolute perfection. I can fix a broken string fairly quickly on stage with it, but a lot harder for me with a LoPro.
How can it be harder? It's almost the same trem but the screws are more accessible, making stringing a little easier/faster. You confusing it with the Edge Pro? I can't think of any logical mechanical reason why your post would make sense, given the design differences.
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post #77 of 538 (permalink) Old 01-07-2020, 01:48 AM
 
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Re: Thoughts on the PIA (The new JEM)?

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Originally Posted by BigBazz View Post
How can it be harder? It's almost the same trem but the screws are more accessible...
It only 'looks' like they're more accessible and I'm not the only one who prefers the original design.

I've repaired broken strings numerous times over the years in mid-song with the Edge and would hate to have to do it with the LoPro, because of the proximity of the wrench to the fine tuners. With the original the wrench has a straight line into the end of the screws with nothing in the way.
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post #78 of 538 (permalink) Old 01-07-2020, 02:20 AM
 
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Re: Thoughts on the PIA (The new JEM)?

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Originally Posted by Hoseki View Post
It only 'looks' like they're more accessible and I'm not the only one who prefers the original design.

I've repaired broken strings numerous times over the years in mid-song with the Edge and would hate to have to do it with the LoPro, because of the proximity of the wrench to the fine tuners. With the original the wrench has a straight line into the end of the screws with nothing in the way.
I have both trems 3 feet away from me. On the Original Edge the screws are way back under the trem at the back of the cavity, on the Lo-Pro they are right on top of the saddle with no obstruction. So if you want to get at the screw on the original Edge the easiest way is to depress the bar to angle the bridge up, otherwise using a straight allen key isn't possible (because the body is obstructing access) and using an angled one can be fiddly. Along with that the blocks in the original Edge move around more and have a more loose fit, it's easier to get the string ideally positioned in the Lo-Pro because of tighter tolerances, also no risk of the blocks falling out like you have with the original.

If you use a straight allen key the Lo-Pro Edge fine tuners can be slightly obstructive, but not to the extent where you can't open them quickly (with say an Ibanez multitool), and an angled allen key is completely unobstructed. Then consider doing full restrings, if you use something under the back of the trem to hold it in position while the guitar has no strings it obstructs the screws on the original edge making it a pain in the ass to get at, again forcing you to depress the trem arm to get some angle to access them, where as on a Lo-Pro you don't have to do that.

I mean it's a very specific scenario you'd have to create for yourself where an Edge is easier/faster to restring than a Lo-Pro, when part of the whole point of the design was to improve that aspect.
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Last edited by BigBazz; 01-07-2020 at 02:26 AM.
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post #79 of 538 (permalink) Old 01-07-2020, 02:27 AM
 
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Re: Thoughts on the PIA (The new JEM)?

The point of the design was the lower the profile for folks with picking styles that got their palms way back by the whale tail.

I have both on various guitars. I find the Original Edge quicker to deal with as well (and quite a bit better balanced for my taste). Way less fussy. Depress the arm a smidgen, boom, super easy access to the saddle screws from the back with no obstruction from the fine tuners. I've also never seen the point of removing all the strings to restring - if you wanna clean your fretboard/do electronics work/whatever else, just remove the springs and pop the whole bridge off.

They're equally stable, of course.
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post #80 of 538 (permalink) Old 01-07-2020, 02:39 AM
 
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Re: Thoughts on the PIA (The new JEM)?

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Originally Posted by Rich View Post
I'm sorry but you are nothing but wrong. Taste is up to the individual, if anything can be argued it's taste. What you like somebody else might hate, what you think is good taste somebody else thinks you're off your rocker. You can dislike anything all you want, just don't pretend that your taste is the be all end all of mankind.
I am sorry, the part with my god given good taste was actually a joke. One can argue, but it's senseless to debate taste.
... although mine is still good. 😉
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post #81 of 538 (permalink) Old 01-07-2020, 02:40 AM
 
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Re: Thoughts on the PIA (The new JEM)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_anuj View Post
The point of the design was the lower the profile for palm muting and for folks who pick with their wrists way back.

I have both on various guitars. I find the Original Edge quicker to deal with as well (and quite a bit better balanced for my taste). Way less fussy. Depress the arm a smidgen, boom, super easy access to the saddle screws from the back with no obstruction from the fine tuners. I've also never seen the point of removing all the strings to restring - if you wanna clean your fretboard/do electronics work/whatever else, just remove the springs and pop the whole bridge off.

They're equally stable, of course.
Part of the design was clearly for faster string changes and improvements in that area, I didn't say it was the "point" of the design.. "Depress the arm a smidgen" - Or don't with the Lo-Pro because you don't need to in order to access the screws? If you use an appropriate tool the microtuners are well out of the way, and even if you use a completely straight allen key with no ball end you can still easily unlock or lock the screws unless the microtuners are fully out. Logical thinking person is going to use the right tools for the job (in this case an angled allen key with a ball end on the straight side), so you shouldn't be arguing your point based on the contrary.

The reason an Original Edge is slower to restring is directly because you have to press the arm down to access the screws, and partly because the blocks like to move about in the hole and it's slightly slower to perfectly position a string in a pinch. I've been gigging my Jems for years at about 150 shows per year in the last few years, I haven't come to this conclusion from a lack of experience.. I've never even considered the idea that an original Edge was a faster string change, because it's more fiddly.
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post #82 of 538 (permalink) Old 01-07-2020, 03:16 AM
 
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Re: Thoughts on the PIA (The new JEM)?

Been gigging 'em 20 years, I don't have any actual problem with either - I just find depressing the trem _way_ quicker than socketing an allen wrench (angled w/ a ball end or otherwise) in the lo-pro's saddle screws. The "right tool for the job" just isn't as quick, I'm sorry. I think you're trying to create a single right answer when there isn't one to be had.

I'm not arguing any point, nor suggesting that you're wrong the find the lo-pro quicker. \_(ツ)_/

I totally agree that there's way more play in the string blocks in the OE, but, like, you don't have to unscrew enough to create problematic amounts of play.
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post #83 of 538 (permalink) Old 01-07-2020, 03:34 AM
 
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Re: Thoughts on the PIA (The new JEM)?

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Originally Posted by BigBazz View Post
...it's a very specific scenario you'd have to create for yourself where an Edge is easier/faster to restring than a Lo-Pro...
Not at all, and I know you're trying to be helpful by telling me how they work, but I've been an Edge fan/owner/user for a long, long time and have done broken string repairs during songs at gigs countless times over the years. Last year when I got my S-5570 one of the first things I did was to remove the brand new LoPro and swap it into the old RG-570 I was selling my friend. He got the new LoPro and I got to keep my superior Edge in my new guitar.
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post #84 of 538 (permalink) Old 01-07-2020, 03:38 AM
 
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Re: Thoughts on the PIA (The new JEM)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_anuj View Post
Been gigging 'em 20 years, I don't have any actual problem with either - I just find depressing the trem _way_ quicker than socketing an allen wrench (angled w/ a ball end or otherwise) in the lo-pro's saddle screws. The "right tool for the job" just isn't as quick, I'm sorry.
Not only that, but when I drop in the end of the extra string length that I've just unwound from the tuner, with the string re-clamped with the bar floored, automatic tension is applied when it's released and it's just that much quicker too, getting tuned back up.
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post #85 of 538 (permalink) Old 01-07-2020, 03:44 AM
 
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Re: Thoughts on the PIA (The new JEM)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBazz View Post
The reason an Original Edge is slower to restring is directly because you have to press the arm down to access the screws, and partly because the blocks like to move about in the hole and it's slightly slower to perfectly position a string in a pinch. I've been gigging my Jems for years at about 150 shows per year in the last few years, I haven't come to this conclusion from a lack of experience.. I've never even considered the idea that an original Edge was a faster string change, because it's more fiddly.
Everything in how you view string changes is based on the slow approach and it's apparent that you've never repaired a broken string in mid-performance. Nothing wrong with that, but I have and grabbing the bar and pressing it all the way to the guitar is part of the process that you've never seen/done before. For those of us who have done it, the Edge wins hands down.

Your approach includes guitar change or stopping the song when you break a string, and I don't do that. You're claiming no lack of experience and yet instead of showing a willingness to learn something new, you're suggesting that Anuj and I are wrong because you can't wrap your head around what we're trying to explain to you.
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post #86 of 538 (permalink) Old 01-07-2020, 03:59 AM
 
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Re: Thoughts on the PIA (The new JEM)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoseki View Post
Everything in how you view string changes is based on the slow approach and it's apparent that you've never repaired a broken string in mid-performance. Nothing wrong with that, but I have and grabbing the bar and pressing it all the way to the guitar is part of the process that you've never seen/done before. For those of us who have done it, the Edge wins hands down.

Your approach includes guitar change or stopping the song when you break a string, and I don't do that. You're claiming no lack of experience and yet instead of showing a willingness to learn something new, you're suggesting that Anuj and I are wrong because you can't wrap your head around what we're trying to explain to you.
Why would you make an assumption and jump to such a conclusion? I've actually posted right here on Jemsite way in the past about changing strings mid song (and being back in tune during the same song the string broke), and I've done so with both trems (and Floyd Roses). I've had a career in music so far spanning about 15 years and thousands of shows, studio recording sessions and other work and I've been playing Floyd Roses since 2002, Jems since 2005.. Why would you assume that I've not changed a string in a pinch before? I literally discussed it in the very previous posts.

And not only that, you're talking about "grabbing the bar and pressing it to the guitar" as if I hadn't already discussed this in all of my previous posts on the topic in this very thread? I do wonder if you're even reading it, you're trying very hard here to prove me wrong by way of ad-hominem while I instead opted to point out the mechanical advantages of the Lo-Pro in this situation. The literal difference boils down to the restring process being the same, aside from the fact that with the Lo-Pro need not touch the tremolo arm, you just put the string in the hole and turn the allen key and you're done.

It's faster, you can't use the fact that one person agreed with your point of view. Jemerator "liked" my post, does that mean we're 1/1? It's not a popularity contest, just simple mechanics.
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post #87 of 538 (permalink) Old 01-07-2020, 04:15 AM
 
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Re: Thoughts on the PIA (The new JEM)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBazz View Post
Why would you make an assumption and jump to such a conclusion?

It's faster...just simple mechanics.
You're the one making assumptions and trying to school other members on how the Edge/LoPro even work, highlighted by your posts explaining how to use guitars that I already own.

Quit thinking that what works for you is the only right answer and realize that it's possible that for ourselves, each of us is right without the other having to be wrong. Unless they insist as you do that your way is the only way.

You've got a way you like and some others have a way they prefer. The Edge is the best unit for me and not for you. I hate the LoPro and you love it. So keep your LoPro and use it in good health and I'll keep using Edges because after having had both, they simply work better for me.

The Edge is faster for me, simple mechanics.
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post #88 of 538 (permalink) Old 01-07-2020, 04:20 AM
 
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Re: Thoughts on the PIA (The new JEM)?

:facepalm: You seem to be making this some kinda competition. It's not. There's more than one way to do this, and what's quicker for how one person does it is, y'know, gonna be quicker for how they do it. The mechanics aren't objectively any "better", just different. They seem to work incredibly well for you, which is brilliant. Your condescension isn't.
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post #89 of 538 (permalink) Old 01-07-2020, 04:32 AM
 
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Re: Thoughts on the PIA (The new JEM)?

So far, it seems PIA has not brought out the best in us...
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post #90 of 538 (permalink) Old 01-07-2020, 04:33 AM
 
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Re: Thoughts on the PIA (The new JEM)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoseki View Post
You're the one making assumptions and trying to school other members on how the Edge/LoPro even work, highlighted by your posts explaining how to use guitars that I already own.

Quit thinking that what works for you is the only right answer and realize that it's possible that for ourselves, each of us is right without the other having to be wrong. Unless they insist as you do that your way is the only way.

You've got a way you like and some others have a way they prefer. The Edge is the best unit for me and not for you. I hate the LoPro and you love it. So keep your LoPro and use it in good health and I'll keep using Edges because after having had both, they simply work better for me.

The Edge is faster for me, simple mechanics.
I like both the trems very much, the only relevant difference for me is how easy/fast it is to restring, which is exactly what I said originally and ultimately not a deal breaker in the slightest.

Saying you "Hate" the Lo-Pro is a very strong suggestion and comes across a bit childish, I certainly don't hate anything that is well built and performs it's function well. I attempted to convince you of my logic by explaining how the mechanics lined up with my thought process, you attempted to avoid talking about the mechanics and instead basically attacked me by suggesting I was clueless to the very things I talked about in my previous posts.

I mean come on if you were so convinced of your line of thought you'd have something more than trying to discredit me as a person while displaying pure tribalism style fandom for a lump of metal. If you wanted to convince me you should have focussed on the mechanics of the unit, but obviously it boils down to them effectively being the same thing with the Lo-Pro having easier access to the screws, which was the basis for my point all along. I don't really care what trem you prefer, I was looking for some mechanical logic to your view and the only one would be if you've yet to discover the angled or ball end allen key and you only use straight ones.

At least read the post if you're going to reply, because so far you've done a good job of making a lot of claims and assumptions that would be cleared if up you read the posts you're replying to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_anuj View Post
:facepalm: You seem to be making this some kinda competition. It's not. There's more than one way to do this, and what's quicker for how one person does it is, y'know, gonna be quicker for how they do it. The mechanics aren't objectively any "better", just different. They seem to work incredibly well for you, which is brilliant. Your condescension isn't.
Condescension is generally the tone I give to someone (not you) who decides to

1. Not read posts, then post about aspects I discussed in those very posts as if I'm unaware of them.. Ex. dipping the trem, changing strings quickly/during a song.
2. Not address any of the mechanical points I raised, but still take the time to jump to some wild conclusions and blind assumptions for a personal dig. Ad-hominem.
3. Display of pure irrational fanboyism for a lump of metal, I didn't know it was such a topic that we need to talk about "hating" a trem.

It's completely fine to like one unit more than the other, but we're now participating in an argument where Hoseki doesn't want to talk about the trems or how they are designed, he wants to try to "win" the argument by attempting to discredit me with assumptions from his imagination.... That's when I get really condescending like I'm talking to a child.

Last edited by BigBazz; 01-07-2020 at 04:48 AM.
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