Why is it impossible to buy an Ibanez Backstop? - Page 2 - Jemsite
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post #16 of 66 (permalink) Old 09-18-2019, 10:09 AM
 
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Re: Why is it impossible to buy an Ibanez Backstop?

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Originally Posted by Anese View Post
Before, I got into it.. i installed an ESP arming adjuster on my Ibanez just to be able to play two string bends so none of the other strings get out of tune
Just for thread info, it's possible to do two note parts with one or both notes bent without going out of tune, but it requires a bit of technique work to get there. Definitely worth it though in order to preserve the floating aspect of the bridges.
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post #17 of 66 (permalink) Old 09-18-2019, 10:56 AM
 
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Re: Why is it impossible to buy an Ibanez Backstop?

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Originally Posted by OCDemon View Post
if you set it right it seriously improves zero return from pull ups but it does kill the feel of the trem I agree. i'm not a fan I have one and used to have another
I found it made the tuning stability worse on my 30th 777. The 777 wasn't returning consistently when I first had it so the tuning stability was less than perfect, I narrowed it down to the backstop and within a day of owning the guitar I had already disengaged it, the return/stability was (still is) flawless after that. I've tried again some time after to get it working usefully but no luck and I'm no stranger to setting up guitars. The only thing I could see it being useful for is if you want to remove/reduce flutter, I did want to experiment with reducing flutter for recording rhythm but in the end I gave up with it.

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Originally Posted by Anese View Post
Before, I got into it.. i installed an ESP arming adjuster on my Ibanez just to be able to play two string bends so none of the other strings get out of tune
after i installed the ESP it took me a while to tweak it and set it right.. but the the result and the feel of the guitar was nice, you can still even do other trem tricks, except for the flutter technique which will become almost impossible to do.

however now i need to try to Backstop instead of the ESP arming adjuster.. since it has more springs and the thing is installed right in the middle which make the whole thing more symmetrical.
I could still try to install two ESP arming adjusters but there a would be a lot of hassle to align them just in the right spot.
The backstop won't stop other strings going flat if you bend a string, if you bend a string the other strings go flat because the trem leans forward while the backstop is also pushing it forward. To avoid strings going flat you would need something that gives resistance by pulling the trem block rather than pushing it. The idea of the backstop seems to be so when you pull up on the trem it provides spring based resistance that will push the trem back into place when you let go, but in my experience with it that just doesn't always work out (probably because it requires the backstop mechanism itself to be 100% consistent/stable, there are more moving parts, more potential things to mess with your tuning stability).

Anyway I don't see any valuable use for the backstop in a well setup guitar, disengaging it was the best decision. I do highly recommend the Tremol-no though, have one on my 7V and it works as advertised.

Last edited by BigBazz; 09-18-2019 at 11:10 AM.
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post #18 of 66 (permalink) Old 09-19-2019, 12:51 PM
 
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Re: Why is it impossible to buy an Ibanez Backstop?

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Originally Posted by BigBazz View Post
...if you bend a string the other strings go flat ...
Unless you work on your string bending technique to accommodate the movement of the bridge. Only time this has ever been a problem for me has been two string combinations on the G B and E strings and only takes a short time to figure out how to do it, but an absolute must if someone wants to keep the floating bridge and not go out of tune when doing stretches on two notes.


Really surprised to see so many post about this problem and that it's not already common knowledge among guitar players who can run circles around me on the fingerboard, and yet not be aware of this relatively simple technique.
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post #19 of 66 (permalink) Old 09-19-2019, 11:38 PM
 
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Re: Why is it impossible to buy an Ibanez Backstop?

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Originally Posted by Hoseki View Post
Unless you work on your string bending technique to accommodate the movement of the bridge. Only time this has ever been a problem for me has been two string combinations on the G B and E strings and only takes a short time to figure out how to do it, but an absolute must if someone wants to keep the floating bridge and not go out of tune when doing stretches on two notes.


Really surprised to see so many post about this problem and that it's not already common knowledge among guitar players who can run circles around me on the fingerboard, and yet not be aware of this relatively simple technique.
I think you're stretching it a bit here, I'd love to see you play some fast country licks and have to bend both strings at the same time during a fast lead line with a double stop. I've been playing floating trem for a long time and I've become used to how to adjust to these aspects, but lets not pretend it's anything the same as playing with a hardtail, the workarounds aren't always practical and for many players very difficult to pull off consistently. I'm sure everyone here is aware that you can bend both strings to get them in tune, or in the case of double stops with fast lead parts you can release the bent string the instant before you hit the harmony note (and indeed that's what I've used a lot when playing fast country style stuff), but it's just not the same thing.

Lets say for example you want to bend a string up and then hit an open note, the open note will be flat... There are so many situations where there isn't an answer, or it's possible but difficult to pull off, I think if you want to play these sort of parts then the best solution is to remove the problem from the guitar when the use of the trem isn't ideal. Anyway, that's why my 7V has a tremol-no, works like a charm and offers a lot more flexibility for chord bending and country playing.

Last edited by BigBazz; 09-19-2019 at 11:50 PM.
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post #20 of 66 (permalink) Old 09-20-2019, 12:04 AM
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Re: Why is it impossible to buy an Ibanez Backstop?

Who plays country on a double locker?!

Whoever wants to, but it's not the norm of course. But the point is still right, microbending to adjust to pitch drop in bends becomes an innate part of your playing. There may be some times you won't sound in perfect intonation but lets get real, if the lick is that fast who noticed?

And a backstop doesn't do anything more than adding a couple extra springs would making the bridge harder to pull forward, keeping it more in relative tune when you are bending strings. Which is usually why people use 5 springs, not because they want Popeye forearms when using the trem.
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post #21 of 66 (permalink) Old 09-20-2019, 12:30 AM
 
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Re: Why is it impossible to buy an Ibanez Backstop?

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Originally Posted by Rich View Post
Who plays country on a double locker?! :lol.
I play everything on it! You know I ordered a Suhr Tele for this job in april (ish) last year with the idea that I would have the Jem just "get me by" until that came, well it took give or take 18 months for Suhr to finish building my guitar.... So yeah played quite a bit of country stuff on a Jem!

Edit : Since we're on the topic, proper country players will frown on me for this but I use the tremolo with the slide at the same time, the Tremol-no gets some use but unless I need to play stuff with a lot of chord bending I won't engage it because I like to use the trem a bit. Of course that guitar is out of commisson at the moment, I was using the Jem 777 for a lot of shows lately (until getting my Suhr a few weeks back) and previously it was a stay at home guitar, ahh well.

Last edited by BigBazz; 09-20-2019 at 12:40 AM.
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post #22 of 66 (permalink) Old 09-20-2019, 08:19 AM
 
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Re: Why is it impossible to buy an Ibanez Backstop?

so as im still itching like a sick dog to get a good deal on one of those backstops I made an international VOIP call to Ibanez USA.
The guy on the phone seemed cool and helpful.
At first he said that he didnt know what i was asking for..(i think he was pretending or i dont know), then he said "ahh ok"
and asked me to wait on the phone and he will see what he can do. (i waited for like 8 minutes).
he came back and explained to me that this part is not for sale due to the issue that we all know about it. ( which was the response I pretty much was expecting).
I also tried to contact HOSHINO Japan but the answer machine was in Japanese, I tired to call them again in another time but the guy on the other end didn't speak english at all
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post #23 of 66 (permalink) Old 09-20-2019, 12:09 PM
 
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Re: Why is it impossible to buy an Ibanez Backstop?

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Originally Posted by BigBazz View Post
I'm sure everyone here is aware that you can bend both strings to get them in tune...
It would be nice if they did, but apparently not, because I always get these incredulous posts whenever I point this out, but nice job of pretending you're not contradicting yourself. You could have done more for the benefit of others if you'd noted that I was correct and then added that there are times that it's difficult or impossible, but still an absolutely necessary technique for floating trem players to acknowledge and work at.
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post #24 of 66 (permalink) Old 09-20-2019, 12:16 PM
 
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Re: Why is it impossible to buy an Ibanez Backstop?

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Originally Posted by Rich View Post
Who plays country on a double locker?!Whoever wants to
! ! !

All the country gigs I've ever played have been either on my double locking Strat and my JEM77FP.

Quote:
...microbending to adjust to pitch drop in bends becomes an innate part of your playing. There may be some times you won't sound in perfect intonation but lets get real, if the lick is that fast who noticed?
Not surprised that you're able to do this, but definitely see no reason for it not being across the board common knowledge when I know that there's no way I'm the only one who's been doing it for decades.
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post #25 of 66 (permalink) Old 09-20-2019, 12:17 PM
 
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Re: Why is it impossible to buy an Ibanez Backstop?

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Originally Posted by Hoseki View Post
It would be nice if they did, but apparently not, because I always get these incredulous posts whenever I point this out, but nice job of pretending you're not contradicting yourself. You could have done more for the benefit of others if you'd noted that I was correct and then added that there are times that it's difficult or impossible, but still an absolutely necessary technique for floating trem players to acknowledge and work at.
I wasn't expecting you to come on the offensive. But how am I contradicting myself? I'm saying that you can do that but it isn't an actual solution to the problem, because it's not. There are many things you could attempt to play where it's not possible to overcome the problem with a technique, and even when it is it can be difficult or impractical, even when you pull it off it can sound worse. If people are looking for a hardware based solution to the problem then a technique based solution is probably not adequate.

You pointing it out the way you do almost comes across as egotistical so it's no surprise you get an adverse response to it, in the right context of course you're correct but it's not really the right answer in this situation. If someone wants what is effectively the behaviour of a hardtail from their trem when they bend then no technique can give them that.
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post #26 of 66 (permalink) Old 09-20-2019, 01:00 PM
 
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Re: Why is it impossible to buy an Ibanez Backstop?

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Originally Posted by BigBazz View Post
I wasn't expecting you to come on the offensive.
It's not called the offensive when you've already done that; it's defending my view.

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But how am I contradicting myself?
Because on the one hand you added conditions that weren't part of the original post you made which in your presentation showed that it doesn't work, then later on you say that it's common knowledge, even though these statements of denial is what I usually see when I post about it. At least both you and Rich seem to be capable of doing it, but a great many players don't even think there is such a technique. Let's focus on what can be done and acknowledge when helpful suggestions are made rather than denying their existence.

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...even when you pull it off it can sound worse.
Just like every other technique we do requires practice, and when it sounds like crap, it's the user and not the technique to blame. Practice...

Quote:
You pointing it out the way you do almost comes across as egotistical so it's no surprise you get an adverse response to it...
This is a classical case of projection/justification. You taking it that way says much more about yourself than it does about me, and then your justification line.

In closing, this is an invaluable technique for a problem that I hear every time people start talking about floating trems and should always be a part of any thread where people say that you can't play double-stops in tune when one of the notes is stretched.
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post #27 of 66 (permalink) Old 09-20-2019, 01:03 PM
 
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Re: Why is it impossible to buy an Ibanez Backstop?

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Originally Posted by Hoseki View Post
It's not called the offensive when you've already done that; it's defending my view.

Because on the one hand you added conditions that weren't part of the original post you made, the one I responded to, then later on you say that it's common knowledge, even though these statements of denial is what I usually see when I post about it. At least both you and Rich seem to be capable of doing it, but a great many players don't even think there is such a technique.

Just like every other technique we do requires practice, and when it sounds like crap, it's the user and not the technique to blame. Practice...

This is a classical case of projection/justification. You taking it that way says much more about yourself than it does about me, and then your justification line.

In closing, this is an invaluable technique for a problem that I hear every time people start talking about floating trems and should always be a part of any thread where people say that you can't play double-stops in tune when one of the notes is stretched.
It's not often on these forums that people turn from discussing points as individuals and coming to an understanding and turn it into "how can I win this debate".... Really in poor taste kind of post, fully defensive with no intention to actually just discuss your view on the topic as a fellow guitarist. By all means reply back to me in a more human fashion and I'm happy to continue the discussion but I'm not here for political debate.
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post #28 of 66 (permalink) Old 09-20-2019, 01:11 PM
 
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Re: Why is it impossible to buy an Ibanez Backstop?

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Originally Posted by BigBazz View Post
It's not often on these forums that people turn from discussing points as individuals and coming to an understanding and turn it into "how can I win this debate".... Really in poor taste kind of post, fully defensive with no intention to actually just discuss your view on the topic as a fellow guitarist. By all means reply back to me in a more human fashion and I'm happy to continue the discussion but I'm not here for political debate.
Trying to shut down debate and in really poor taste perfectly describes this most recent post of yours, and now you introduce politics. Please.

Discussing the topic as a fellow guitarist is a perfect description of my first reply to you but you keep pulling the conversation away from discussion of floating trem stability and techniques for dealing with it. Just talk about the these two points and leave out your projections and everyone benefits.
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post #29 of 66 (permalink) Old 09-20-2019, 01:21 PM
 
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Re: Why is it impossible to buy an Ibanez Backstop?

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Originally Posted by Hoseki View Post
Trying to shut down debate and in really poor taste perfectly describes this most recent post of yours, and now you introduce politics. Please.

Discussing the topic as a fellow guitarist is a perfect description of my first reply to you but you keep pulling the conversation away from discussion of floating trem stability and techniques for dealing with it. Just talk about the these two points and leave out your projections and everyone benefits.
Political debate was used as a figure of speech, and you're doing it again. I'm here to discuss guitars with people I respect, not debate, certaintly not to argue semantics or engage in a battle of words, it's meaningless and benefits nobody. I had no disdain for you when I wrote that original reply. Let's not forget here that I was simply pointing out why a backstop does not help solve this problem when you decided to enlighten me on how to solve the problem with technique, which had nothing to do with the backstop, which is what my post was about.

Quote:
The backstop won't stop other strings going flat if you bend a string, if you bend a string the other strings go flat because the trem leans forward while the backstop is also pushing it forward.
To quote myself, I'm explaining why the backstop doesn't fix the problem.

Quote:
I do highly recommend the Tremol-no though, have one on my 7V and it works as advertised.
To quote myself again, I'm finishing off by suggesting the Tremol-no as a device that does fix the problem. So really it makes no sense that you reply to my post by cherry picking some out of context text to use for your reply, using it as an opportunity to let people know the technique you like to use (which in my experience as a musician is pretty common among other players). So then I reply to you stating why I think the solution isn't always the answer.... And then you go on the offensive turning a conversation into a debate, which I want no part of.
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post #30 of 66 (permalink) Old 09-20-2019, 03:12 PM
 
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Re: Why is it impossible to buy an Ibanez Backstop?

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Originally Posted by BigBazz View Post
So really it makes no sense that you reply to my post by cherry picking some out of context...
This is how conversations start and evolve. If I don't address your whole post it means that I'm agreeing with it. Not out of context at all to focus in on the part that I thought needed to be addressed, not for myself, but for the benefit of players who are seemingly unaware of it.

You're still contradicting yourself by saying you don't want to do this, but continuing to present unrelated reasons why I even posted in the first place.

Once again you project your desire to be seen as an expert on the whole subject onto me.
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