2017 Ibanez premium guitars - Page 7 - Jemsite
All Other Guitars (including Prestige) Discussion about other Ibanez Guitars not covered in the above topics. Includes J-Custom, USA-Custom, Prestige subforum.

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post #91 of 132 (permalink) Old 05-16-2017, 04:47 PM
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Re: 2017 Ibanez premium guitars

Labor cost is small part of picture again just compare SFG to 655. Your false narrative not only cherry picks info but makes it seem like one guy spends a week exclusively building a SFG.... these are ASSEMBLY LINE axes.

Also why would a distributor pickup a guitar in limited production that Ibanez doesn't seem to care about or commit to. How stupid is that... a guaranteed clearance rack item due to non-promotion alone.
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post #92 of 132 (permalink) Old 05-16-2017, 04:53 PM
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Re: 2017 Ibanez premium guitars

Hey genius, the DISTRIBUTOR does the promotion in their country, NOT Ibanez......

It's a false narrative the labor cost is a small picture, when it's 15 time higher? It's an ASSEMBLY LINE THAT COSTS 15 TIMES MORE!!!

I'm cherry picking info? Like, average labor rates?! what kind of drugs are melting your brain today?

And please enlighten me exactly how you know what costs what in the production of any guitar, and where you create your fake news. On the toilet like our president?
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post #93 of 132 (permalink) Old 05-16-2017, 05:09 PM
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Re: 2017 Ibanez premium guitars

Um... where did i say "Ibanez" as in japan promotes anything?
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post #94 of 132 (permalink) Old 05-16-2017, 05:15 PM
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Re: 2017 Ibanez premium guitars

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Also why would a distributor pickup a guitar in limited production that Ibanez doesn't seem to care about or commit to. How stupid is that... a guaranteed clearance rack item due to non-promotion alone.
Please then, clarify what the hell this stupid statement means. As in who are you expecting to do to "promotion" in this scenario. Please, make it make sense.
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post #95 of 132 (permalink) Old 05-16-2017, 05:39 PM
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Re: 2017 Ibanez premium guitars

Welcome to story hour! WTF! Just what it says. Ibanez has no commitment to the AF180 or AFS180 (limited run axes) so why would a distributor take on even more commitment (purchase a run then try to market & sell it to it's customers... Ibanez dealers in their region).

This of course highlights the catch-22 that I've referenced Ibanez racing to the bottom (commoditization of their guitars).

Who will want their best quality stuff over time if not attached to Joe/Steve (unique, super-endorsers)?

Your counter argument is basically Indo = Japan mostly and whoever disagrees is a general snob or elitist (insert HRC-type argument & name calling for good effect) because lack of non-MIJ quality is overstated by said snob(s).
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post #96 of 132 (permalink) Old 05-16-2017, 05:50 PM
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Re: 2017 Ibanez premium guitars

Who has done the most insulting today?

Here's Glen playing god of all knowledge again.

So, Japan has no commitment to 180's? Yet, they build them, they offer them to be ordered. How much more commitment should they be making? Forcing distributors to buy them?

A distributor orders a run of models because they've had feedback from their biggest retailers that believe they have a market for them. If they don't feel they have a market, they not going to order. It's that simple. So while they'll make something as wonderful as a 180, how is Japan supposed to get that into the hands of the consumer?

Who wants their best quality stuff? Players that want the best quality stuff!! It has zero to do with Joe and Steve, or insert any other endorser. It's either the quality they want or it isn't, it's not a signature model, it doesn't have to be. But it has to be wanted or needed.
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post #97 of 132 (permalink) Old 05-16-2017, 06:02 PM
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Re: 2017 Ibanez premium guitars

IMO the bottom line on why these guitars are not ordered around the world, is completely Ibanez' fault in the decision to have minimum orders for each model. I would have sold 6 or 7 JC's last year, if they would allow an order of a single JC that's no special order but sitting in a warehouse in Japan. So they lost 6-7 sales, because they require HUSA to order 10 of any particular model. THAT is a commitment the distributors don't want to make because they will always be cautious unless they fully believe they can move the product.

If Japan did not have these minimums, then somebody in France could order a single 180 and be extremely happy, the dealer made money, the distributor made money, Fujigen made money, and Ibanez made money. But they won't sell, just one. Just like a bag of Lays.
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post #98 of 132 (permalink) Old 05-16-2017, 07:41 PM
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Re: 2017 Ibanez premium guitars

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IMO the bottom line on why these guitars are not ordered around the world, is completely Ibanez' fault in the decision to have minimum orders for each model. I would have sold 6 or 7 JC's last year, if they would allow an order of a single JC that's no special order but sitting in a warehouse in Japan. So they lost 6-7 sales, because they require HUSA to order 10 of any particular model. THAT is a commitment the distributors don't want to make because they will always be cautious unless they fully believe they can move the product.
So in plain English you're confirming distributors don't believe in "high quality" Ibanez product enough to sell 1 guitar per 5 states in the USA over several months. And somehow you also feel that is the fault of the DISTRIBUTOR not the company making and pricing the guitars attractively enough. OMG this is classic!

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Who wants their best quality stuff? Players that want the best quality stuff!! It has zero to do with Joe and Steve, or insert any other endorser. It's either the quality they want or it isn't, it's not a signature model, it doesn't have to be. But it has to be wanted or needed.
So players want their best stuff? Um... i thought they want Indo choice? Oh right they want both. But no distributer - even Hosh USA - will order 10 AFS180 guitars.

Who's on first???

As you know but will happily ignore, Prestige Ibanez is signature top heavy. And very specifically "new signature limited edition" top heavy. You know this based on sales. Prove me wrong and post your total sales of brand new FP2 or VWHs in the last 2 years worldwide (market size of 180 MILLION in the USA alone 18-64)?
https://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/...c2010br-03.pdf

Which again is my point as Ibanez races to the price bottom "players that want the best quality stuff" also want good pricing and will more and more and more and more in N.American marketplace just pass on Prestige for PRS, Gibson, etc. made in the USA axes.
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post #99 of 132 (permalink) Old 05-16-2017, 08:03 PM
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Re: 2017 Ibanez premium guitars

I'll go thru this one more time for those on the short bus.

Ibanez is only going to carry x amount of SKU's, period. How many similar hollow bodies would you like them to carry? They already have the AS200 and the JSM100, both of which make the ASF180 redundant, unless they want to have 3 different models basically the same. They will rotate these in and out of the US market as they deem worthy. Classic? Only the way you think. BUSINESS is the way HUSA thinks.

Players always want the best they can get for their money. Even if it's built in Indo, they want the best they can get for their $399, that also checks all the other boxes on their list. If somebody wants an AS200 but can't afford the $2300 they'll probably be looking at a Chinese Artcore for $799. You don't think they would prefer the $2300 guitars? OMG that's classic!! Of course they'd prefer it, unless they were going to use it in a bar band having bottle thrown at the fence protecting them, then they might actually want the Chinese, as with alot of touring/preforming players who would much rather play the AS200, but the circumstances determine there's no way they'd gig with that value a guitar. Just as Joe no longer tours with anything he cares about.

You are not on first, you struck out, 4 pages ago.

FP2 is dead. You've read me type it 100 times, so why do you ask? But if the FP3 is cool, I will sell more of those than I will the PBFP's, which have sold very well. 28 FP2's in 18 months, I expect no different as long as the desire and pricing are comparable. They have a severe need for a new Fujigen JEM and JEM7 or UV. They have plenty of holes to fill across the line, especially in Prestige 7 strings.

There's 180 MILLION WHAT in the USA alone? Women? Because from what I've read estimates there are about 80 million guitar players in the entire world. Players meaning, those that actually know more than 5 chords and 2 folk songs.

It's really too bad you think you're such an expert in the guitar market, but skuttle back onto the short bus please.
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post #100 of 132 (permalink) Old 05-16-2017, 08:31 PM
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Re: 2017 Ibanez premium guitars

Epic drivel. Yawn.
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post #101 of 132 (permalink) Old 05-16-2017, 08:33 PM
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Re: 2017 Ibanez premium guitars

Of course, anything that actually includes facts instead of your fake news makes you yawn.
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post #102 of 132 (permalink) Old 05-16-2017, 10:14 PM
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Re: 2017 Ibanez premium guitars

I can see what Glen means. The prestige line has been neglected, and you do have to look into signatures for anything that has desirable features, bue the pricing on those is insane. That's a bussines decision, and so is making the prestiges unapealing bare bones workhorses to keep the cost down. 30 years ago, the routing of the inlays was done with a mold (i dont know the technical name o way to explain it) with a pin router. The cutting of the pieces was done the same way. Today more stuff is done in almost fully atomated processes (CNC routing, laser cutting, painting). I'm sure Ibanez could make an interesting guitar within the regular Prestige line, but it is their marketing strategy to make you pay through the nose for a MIJ signature or J custom. That's a marketing decision, not something they are forced to do because of cost structure. And that is what is pissing some people off. I think we can all agree that this strategy does in fact exist.

I like the FP2, but not enough to shell out 4k. If they do a beautifull new FP3, 4,5K will still be too much. I like J customs, but if you are going to charge 4K for a top of the line "exquisite" guitar, don't go cheap on the top. Both my J Custom have tops that are equivalente to what you had in a 1998/2000 RG3120. And the colours (staining process) is nowhere near a very nice PRS. For 4k, they could definately do better.

It does seem as if Ibanez is focusing on making interesting stuff out of indonesia rather than japan.

But we can all complain about that, or just move on and be happy that there are good playing, feature packed guitars at affordable prices out of Indonesia. If they keep improving them, I ll keep buying them.

I think we can also agree that Glen has a point regarding people choosing other brands over Ibanez when it comes to spending 3/5K on a guitar. I know I would look elsewhere for that kind of money. I do agree that PRS probably offers better value in over 3k guitars. Not to even mention Carvin/Kiesel. Thing is, I already own those, and I like to see Ibanez come up with new interesting models with a lot of features at a reasonable price.

In fact, I think we can all agree on the facts, but we choose to make a big deal out of our preferences. There's no denying that the Premiums are well put toghether. That their flaws are minor and easily fixable (and most people wouldn't even notice in the first place). The Edze Zero is a good tremolo. They are packed with features. They do have interesting models, and they keep comming out with good looking interesting guitars. MIJ Ibanez are either bare bones boring guitars, o exceedingly expensive ones (mostly by choice/business decistion rather than "cost"). Etc, etc,etc.

We can also agree that there never was a more prolific catalog that what we ve seen in recent years. Though now it's splitted between 3 or 4 different lines of production, with huge price discrimination.

Back on topic, It all comes down to choice. I would't pay 3500 for a 3120, but I can see my self paying USD 1200 for the 1070 or 1300 for a RG6PCMLTD if I can find one with a nice top and a nice fretboard.

The topic was about the 2017 Premium guitars, basically the 1070 and the RG6PCMLTD. With Ibanez current strategy/pricing they are pretty cool. With Ibanez current marketing pricing strategy, the whole Premium line makes sense.
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post #103 of 132 (permalink) Old 05-16-2017, 10:27 PM
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Re: 2017 Ibanez premium guitars

I think there's only one thing I can rebut, and that is,

We should all agree that nobody posting in this thread has any idea what the exact costs are, what the exact royalties are, or what the expenses are, to make the determination that cost structure is not a driving force behind pricing, even though you all want to believe it's nothing but marketing strategy. I don't think you can ever eliminate costs in the final pricing decisions. Just as you can't eliminate market tolerance, or exchange rates, or 100 other things nobody posting in this thread is considering or even aware of.
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post #104 of 132 (permalink) Old 05-16-2017, 10:38 PM
 
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Re: 2017 Ibanez premium guitars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich View Post
They have a severe need for a new Fujigen JEM and JEM7 or UV. They have plenty of holes to fill across the line, especially in Prestige 7 strings.
Currently praying this is summer NAMM foreshadowing.
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post #105 of 132 (permalink) Old 05-16-2017, 11:11 PM
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Re: 2017 Ibanez premium guitars

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Originally Posted by Rich View Post
I think there's only one thing I can rebut, and that is,

We should all agree that nobody posting in this thread has any idea what the exact costs are, what the exact royalties are, or what the expenses are, to make the determination that cost structure is not a driving force behind pricing, even though you all want to believe it's nothing but marketing strategy. I don't think you can ever eliminate costs in the final pricing decisions. Just as you can't eliminate market tolerance, or exchange rates, or 100 other things nobody posting in this thread is considering or even aware of.
Agreed. I'm not dismissing cost as factor altoghether. I do think it has an impact. I'm just not convinced that it is the main driving force in the strategy. I could see that when the yen was at mid 80s, I'm not so sure now. But, I agree, there's no way to know for sure. That said, a 4mm AA/AAA figured maple top costs 50/100 bucks wholesale, and aside from more routing/cutting time in the CNC/laser, there's not much aditional cost in making a cool inlay. So, I doubt there´s more than 200/250 USD additional cost (including gluing and pressing the "drop top") in making an RG655 with a flamed maple top and an interesting inlay. Asuming you want to charge double that, it doesn't seem far fetched to asume that they could make a MIJ guitar with a real figured maple top and fancy inlays below the 2k price point. That makes me thing that they chose not to, and that it is basically driven by a marketing strategy.

In any case, I'm fine with that as long as I have viable indo alternatives even cheaper like the 1070. But I can see why other people would like them to go in a different direction.

Last edited by RCB; 05-16-2017 at 11:24 PM.
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