ESP and their ego - Jemsite
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post #1 of 76 (permalink) Old 11-16-2013, 09:08 AM Thread Starter
 
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ESP and their ego

Okay, last week I decided to take a former student of mine (who is a big Ax7 fan and loves Synyster Gates) around to different guitar shops (as he had never been to most of the places I know). I took him to Big Boss, which is an official ESP dealer (in Ochanomizu in tokyo, Big Boss runs the ESP custom shop).

A few months ago, to attempt to figure out why Timo Tolkki used the MII CTM as his base for his Stratovarius era guitars, I picked one up to try it out. Honestly, I liked my RG2550 better but it wasn't a bad guitar. It was cost at roughly $2400. J Custom price. Yeah I figured ESP was overpriced as it was but it wasn't that bad.

Fast forward back to last Sunday with my former student. I saw an ESP MII CTM going for $3600. Double you-tee-eff? In the span of just a few months, they raised the price over a grand? This is idiotic. I've seen alot of people complain here about Ibanez being a ripoff compared to the old days, but how can ANY company justify such a massive price increase? On top of that, how can any guitar player just accept this?
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post #2 of 76 (permalink) Old 11-16-2013, 09:47 AM
 
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Re: ESP and their ego

Was it the same guitar? Different features? Was the previous price of $2,400 a special offer?

I don't think it has anything to do with ego. They will sell them for as much as they can. Supply and demand.
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post #3 of 76 (permalink) Old 11-16-2013, 09:51 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: ESP and their ego

The only difference I saw was the pups. The one I played had duncans, this one had EMG 81/85
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post #4 of 76 (permalink) Old 11-16-2013, 08:17 PM
 
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Re: ESP and their ego

I'm no ESP expert, but before deciding to buy the M-II CTM, I did some research and monitoring the market.
The M-II CTM newest model equipped with EMG ( oroginal model factory default ).
It's been the last 2-3 years they are using EMG for the M-II CTM, not duncan.

Older model has duncans ( in H-S config or H-H) config.
so maybe this explain the price differences you just saw.
the one with duncan perhaps NOS ?
the one with 3600 is latest production?

anyway, as I told you before, if you are in japan and looking to buy the M-II CTM, always look for used one.
cost you around 100K yen something, still in good condition.
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post #5 of 76 (permalink) Old 11-16-2013, 08:31 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: ESP and their ego

Doesn't matter if it's latest production, that massive difference is just insane. Over 1000 USD increase within 4 years is just insane inflation.

I'm not looking into getting one, I was just stating my observations of the idiotic ESP pricing.
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post #6 of 76 (permalink) Old 11-16-2013, 08:42 PM
 
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Re: ESP and their ego

I heard ESP is opening a US factory in 2014. Look out for it.
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post #7 of 76 (permalink) Old 11-16-2013, 08:59 PM
 
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Re: ESP and their ego

Quote:
Originally Posted by MatiasTolkki View Post
This is idiotic. I've seen alot of people complain here about Ibanez being a ripoff compared to the old days, but how can ANY company justify such a massive price increase? On top of that, how can any guitar player just accept this?
Well for starters, people can quit being foolish and overpaying.
I've said it a bunch of times already...people are better off building their own guitars. We've seen here what some can build on their own with either the skills they have, or the resources available to them.

When they can't sell anything, they'll come back down to earth or go bye bye.

American Companies making guitars here...I can see them being more expensive because the labor here is quite a bit more expensive, but when I see companies like Ibanez paying dirt for labor and then charging 2500 bucks for something someone can build for half that, they can kiss my ass.
I'm not paying for steve vai's pedicures and joe satriani's sunglasses.

These companies have effectively priced themselves out of 4 sales from me alone this year. And it's not like they are really making anything I have any interest in with very few exceptions.

I'm a lot happier since I decided to pursue having things my way.
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post #8 of 76 (permalink) Old 11-16-2013, 09:09 PM
 
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Re: ESP and their ego

Quote:
Originally Posted by MatiasTolkki View Post
Doesn't matter if it's latest production, that massive difference is just insane. Over 1000 USD increase within 4 years is just insane inflation.

I'm not looking into getting one, I was just stating my observations of the idiotic ESP pricing.
Happy 1000th post!
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post #9 of 76 (permalink) Old 11-17-2013, 02:42 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: ESP and their ego

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Originally Posted by fwd0120 View Post
Happy 1000th post!
Didn't even notice it till you said it. Thanks

Funny how my 1000th post is complaining about something. Well I DO complain alot
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post #10 of 76 (permalink) Old 11-17-2013, 02:44 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: ESP and their ego

Quote:
Originally Posted by POS RG View Post
Well for starters, people can quit being foolish and overpaying.
I've said it a bunch of times already...people are better off building their own guitars. We've seen here what some can build on their own with either the skills they have, or the resources available to them.

When they can't sell anything, they'll come back down to earth or go bye bye.

American Companies making guitars here...I can see them being more expensive because the labor here is quite a bit more expensive, but when I see companies like Ibanez paying dirt for labor and then charging 2500 bucks for something someone can build for half that, they can kiss my ass.
I'm not paying for steve vai's pedicures and joe satriani's sunglasses.

These companies have effectively priced themselves out of 4 sales from me alone this year. And it's not like they are really making anything I have any interest in with very few exceptions.

I'm a lot happier since I decided to pursue having things my way.
That's why I will only buy used Ibanez from now on. After having such great luck with my 550 and 560 (especially the 560, wow is that thing in immaculate condition) I dont think I could go back to buying new again. I love my 1550, 2550, and 350, but just no. I think if I buy any new guitar anytime soon, it'll be a Kramer Pacer classic.
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post #11 of 76 (permalink) Old 11-17-2013, 03:32 AM
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Re: ESP and their ego

Quote:
Originally Posted by MatiasTolkki View Post
Doesn't matter if it's latest production, that massive difference is just insane. Over 1000 USD increase within 4 years is just insane inflation.

I'm not looking into getting one, I was just stating my observations of the idiotic ESP pricing.
It's not inflation, it's the currency markets. Look at the value of the Yen over the last 10 years against the dollar. When the market crashed about 5 or 6 years ago, international trade, particularly out of Japan was heavily affected, we're still seeing those effects in the world of guitars.
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post #12 of 76 (permalink) Old 11-17-2013, 08:12 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: ESP and their ego

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Originally Posted by jono View Post
It's not inflation, it's the currency markets. Look at the value of the Yen over the last 10 years against the dollar. When the market crashed about 5 or 6 years ago, international trade, particularly out of Japan was heavily affected, we're still seeing those effects in the world of guitars.
But I live IN Japan, where ESP makes all their high end stuff. Why would that effect something within the country when it's not be exported anywhere?
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post #13 of 76 (permalink) Old 11-17-2013, 11:53 AM
 
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Re: ESP and their ego

Quote:
Originally Posted by MatiasTolkki View Post
Okay, last week I decided to take a former student of mine (who is a big Ax7 fan and loves Synyster Gates) around to different guitar shops (as he had never been to most of the places I know). I took him to Big Boss, which is an official ESP dealer (in Ochanomizu in tokyo, Big Boss runs the ESP custom shop).

A few months ago, to attempt to figure out why Timo Tolkki used the MII CTM as his base for his Stratovarius era guitars, I picked one up to try it out. Honestly, I liked my RG2550 better but it wasn't a bad guitar. It was cost at roughly $2400. J Custom price. Yeah I figured ESP was overpriced as it was but it wasn't that bad.

Fast forward back to last Sunday with my former student. I saw an ESP MII CTM going for $3600. Double you-tee-eff? In the span of just a few months, they raised the price over a grand? This is idiotic. I've seen alot of people complain here about Ibanez being a ripoff compared to the old days, but how can ANY company justify such a massive price increase? On top of that, how can any guitar player just accept this?
ESP makes their MIJ thing rare, a lot like PRS is the rare American guitar. Because of this, ESP and PRS can charge anything they like. It's supply an demand and they know it. I think a MIJ Ibby RG is as good same as MII and Les Paul DC as good as PRS Custom 24. But there's a snob factor about the MII and the Custom 24 that really does not have anything to do with the build.

Also Paul Reed Smith USA and ESP Japan don't do budget or moderate guitars. (But Paul Reed Smith USA is working on S2 line which is still American made along with the Custom 24 and targeted to the lower side of the high end over $1,000 dollars). But as we speak there are no $750 dollar MIJ ESPs or American made PRS guitars online other than used.

Last edited by 63Blazer; 11-17-2013 at 12:04 PM.
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post #14 of 76 (permalink) Old 11-17-2013, 01:56 PM
 
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Re: ESP and their ego

I am inclined to think the first M-II was a Standard CTM and the pricier one the actual Original Series M-II CTM. Those Originals are Custom Shop pieces through-and-through, with a price tag to show for it. You'd expect a small increase in quality, going from $2000-ish Standard Series to $3000-ish Original Series, but in my limited experience it's quite a jump. Highest end ESP's are absolutely amazing and rival anything out there.
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post #15 of 76 (permalink) Old 11-17-2013, 02:34 PM
 
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Re: ESP and their ego

Quote:
Originally Posted by MatiasTolkki View Post
That's why I will only buy used Ibanez from now on. After having such great luck with my 550 and 560 (especially the 560, wow is that thing in immaculate condition) I dont think I could go back to buying new again. I love my 1550, 2550, and 350, but just no. I think if I buy any new guitar anytime soon, it'll be a Kramer Pacer classic.
I would really like to buy a 2550 or I think it's a 3550...the "galaxy black" with "brushed steel" looking pickguards with maple boards...I tried one and liked it, but like I said, it's still just an rg in the end and the price is definitely not justified for a few extra visuals. It's really no different of an rg than the ones I have and even this wacky jem I am building will likely be no different.

If I find one for an acceptable price I'd definitely do it. Great guitars. But no guitar is THAT great. lol

If I were to buy a new guitar right now, I think it would have to be one of the new charvels. I had some older ones when I was first living on my own a loooonng time ago and they were all stolen. But they were truly good no-nonsense SOLID guitars that played incredibly. I think the Kramer you mention is most definitely in that same league. You get all the good tone and playability without people's "dna" in the paint, stupid knuckle routes, and other assorted gimmicks that do nothing for what one REALLY wants in a guitar. I mean, gimmicks are always cool because they make things different, but I'm not paying thousands over what the guitar really costs because of it.
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