String tension, noob question - Jemsite
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post #1 of 16 (permalink) Old 05-11-2006, 08:41 AM Thread Starter
 
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String tension, noob question

Does the string tension differ between fixed bridge and edge pro-equipped prestige and J custom RGs? I dont even know if it should differ between floating bridges and fixed bridges, but im interested in prestige and J customs only so i thought id post it here
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post #2 of 16 (permalink) Old 05-11-2006, 10:03 AM
 
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Re: String tension, noob question

Floating trems have springs that have a big influence on string tension. The stronger the springs, the more string tension you'll get because everytime to press a string you'll interact with the springs as well. The springs counteract/dissipate the movement/vibrations of the strings. That's why a Universe has more string tension than a Jem. The springs also influence the tone...the heavier the springs the lower the overal tone of the guitar (with standard string guage). Lower end RGs appear to have very light trem springs, which significantly lowers the string tension but is very detrimental to tone: it makes them sound a bit squeeky and bodyless.

Even unplugged you'll immediately hear the tonal difference between a locking trem and a fixed bridge. The fixed bridge in itself doesn't affect the string vibration, but Gibson found a way to ef up tone and string tension by using the angled stopbar and stupid saddles. Works well with heavy pickers.
A fixed bridge with decent -read: non Gibson tune-o-matic- saddles is a treat for your ears, because it allows a brighter sound. If that's what you want Telecasters are a nice example with the ringing bell tone. The string tension is lower because the bridge will not counteract movement.
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post #3 of 16 (permalink) Old 05-11-2006, 11:16 AM
 
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Re: String tension, noob question

The short answer is no.

String tension only depends on pitch, scale length and string thickness.

So a .009'' E string will be at exactly the same tension (if tuned to E ) on any F&nder [email protected], T&le, on a Jem or Universe or any other 25.5'' scale guitar.

It won't matter if it's got string through body, a floating LoPro or a tune-o-matic bridge...etc.

If you are talking about feel, there are huge differences, for example when bending up.
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post #4 of 16 (permalink) Old 05-11-2006, 12:21 PM
 
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Re: String tension, noob question

there's a noticeable difference in string tension (not scale length) between fixed bridges and floating trems. since the trem floats on floyds, it 'gives' when you bend and vibrato, making the strings feel more slack. even when not bending or using vibrato, you can tell the difference. strings feel flimsier on floating bridges.
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post #5 of 16 (permalink) Old 05-11-2006, 08:42 PM
 
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Re: String tension, noob question

Quote:
Originally Posted by eviltwin
If you are talking about feel, there are huge differences, for example when bending up.

That's generally referred to as string tension (Not the crap you can read on the back of a packet of strings, ) It's the noticable difference in the way the string tension changes (Delta string tension) when fretting strings on different guitars. Where a fixed bridge isn't flexible at all a floating trem has its springs to add to the tension. When the trem gives in a bit you're adding (distance)x(spring constant)x(3 springs)x(complex trigonometric math mess) to the string tension. The springs in my Universe have a higher spring constant thus add more to the string tension than for instance my Jems. Delta Fst is higher.
On the Gibson design you can raise the string tension by raising the angle between the tune-o-matic and the stopbar. There's your feel.
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post #6 of 16 (permalink) Old 05-11-2006, 09:02 PM
 
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Re: String tension, noob question

I have an RG550, which I use 10's on, and I bought an RGA321FSPB last summer (which has a fixed bridge; no locking trem), which I put 10's on (it came from Ibanez with 9's).

I stretched the living **** out of the 10's on the RGA, adjusted the neck and the action and they STILL felt too stiff. So, I HAD to lower them to 9's on the RGA in order to play comfortably.
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post #7 of 16 (permalink) Old 05-11-2006, 09:18 PM
 
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Re: String tension, noob question

Gotta agree with eviltwin - same string tuned to the same note equals the same string tension, period.
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post #8 of 16 (permalink) Old 05-11-2006, 10:15 PM
 
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Re: String tension, noob question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco
Gotta agree with eviltwin - same string tuned to the same note equals the same string tension, period.
Only true if the scale length is the same. A D'Addario .009 tuned to E on a 25.5" scale Strat or Jem will have a higher string tension when compared to the same string, tuned to the same note on a 24.75" scale Les Paul.

Confirmed by Mr. Brennan, my physics teacher in high school, 26 years ago.

Last edited by ScottB; 05-11-2006 at 10:44 PM.
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post #9 of 16 (permalink) Old 05-11-2006, 10:25 PM
 
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Re: String tension, noob question

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScreamJem7
Confirmmed by Mr. Brennan, my physics teacher in high school, 26 years ago.

Who am I to argue with Mr. Brennan - sounds good to me.
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post #10 of 16 (permalink) Old 05-12-2006, 09:57 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: String tension, noob question

Ok from what i understand, string tension is less on floating bridges? because i have an old Ibanez with a fixed bridge and the string tension is much less than that on my bc rich which has the same strings and the same scale length :s
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post #11 of 16 (permalink) Old 05-12-2006, 11:40 AM
 
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Exclamation String tension, not to be confused with string feel, sponginess

Quote:
Originally Posted by no1spretty
Ok from what i understand, string tension is less on floating bridges? because i have an old Ibanez with a fixed bridge and the string tension is much less than that on my bc rich which has the same strings and the same scale length :s
No, as I said before spring tension is equal, at equal scale lengths, at equal pitch, for equal thickness strings:
  • 3% extra scale length (24.75'' vs 25.5'') requires ~6% extra tension.

    bending up one semitone (3% higher frequency) requires ~6% extra tension.

    thicker strings 0.010'' vs 0.009'' requires 70N vs 57N or extra 23% tension!


Now, what you feel when bending or fretting is not just the tension going up but more importantly the resulting sideways force from the string being off-center.

Example 0.009 E 12th fret, bending up two semitones:

- Tension goes up from 57N to 67N, sideways deflection necessary ~14mm (will be slightly more on a floating bridge) the resulting sideways force is only 5.4N

Example 0.009 E 12th fret, bending up three semitones:

- Tension goes up from 57N to 78N, sideways deflection necessary ~20mm (will be slightly more on a floating bridge) the resulting sideways force is now 9.6N


The changes in this last example are imperceptibly small, the effects of floating trem vs hardtail on this are even smaller, anyone who claims this affects feel is clearly delusional, a slight change in action will have a bigger effect.

On a floating bridge, as it rotates forward, it slightly counters the effects of the bend, so you need more sideways deflection, the necessary rise in tension is still the same, but the larger deflection means you feel more resulting force. The effect is very small, you can block the trem with the other hand to try to feel the difference.

How far it rotates depends on the number of springs and the size and number of the other strings. The floating trem also has an advantage, the locking nut means you don't have to stretch the part of the string beyond the nut, this alleviates some of the floating effect when bending.

All of this is feel, but it is not string tension, this feel is usually referred to as sponginess.

Last edited by eviltwin; 05-16-2006 at 07:54 AM.
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post #12 of 16 (permalink) Old 05-12-2006, 02:46 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: String tension, noob question

Ok thanks
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post #13 of 16 (permalink) Old 05-15-2006, 02:36 PM
 
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Re: String tension, not to be confused with string feel, sponginess

Quote:
Originally Posted by eviltwin
Anyone who claims this affects feel is clearly delusional
Well it tends to become a noticeable difference once you're playing legato @ over 10 notes per second on the B and G strings. Also the strings bend beyond the frets because of the inertia of your fingers. I can even feel the difference between minutely different springs on a Vigier with practically NO -yet still the same- action, same trem angle, tuning and strings and I'm definitely not delusional. Thanks for that, btw.
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post #14 of 16 (permalink) Old 05-15-2006, 03:48 PM
 
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Re: String tension, not to be confused with string feel, sponginess

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texter
Well it tends to become a noticeable difference once you're playing legato @ over 10 notes per second on the B and G strings. Also the strings bend beyond the frets because of the inertia of your fingers. I can even feel the difference between minutely different springs on a Vigier with practically NO -yet still the same- action, same trem angle, tuning and strings and I'm definitely not delusional. Thanks for that, btw.
+1
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post #15 of 16 (permalink) Old 05-16-2006, 07:47 AM
 
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Re: String tension, not to be confused with string feel, sponginess

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texter
Well it tends to become a noticeable difference once you're playing legato @ over 10 notes per second on the B and G strings. Also the strings bend beyond the frets because of the inertia of your fingers. I can even feel the difference between minutely different springs on a Vigier with practically NO -yet still the same- action, same trem angle, tuning and strings and I'm definitely not delusional. Thanks for that, btw.
no prob

even if you had insane finger inertia, and managed to completely push the string against the fretboard between to frets in a legato run on the high E string, you could only manage to go sharp by 80cents (on a fixed bridge) but this would require 14N (13.88 to be exact or ~1.4kgF) at any rate, you don't want to go 80cents sharp...

the total string tension would only go up 0.7% not enough to really make a floating bridge go forward much, but it would drop the change to 70cents (other strings will go flat slightly, lo E dropping most: -24cents)

What you will try to feel however is the difference between 13.88N fixed or 13.75N floating, this is impossible for a human finger. And since you will never push it all the way down trough 'finger inertia", the change will be less. In fact if your fiinger inertia only manages to push it halfway down, the force will be 6.45N vs 6.47N (floating 3 springs vs fixed) In fact 5 springs is right between the two at 6.46N.

Other influences will be bigger than fixed bridge vs floating:

for example fret radius, fret height (!), ball bearing vs knife edge. or even old strings v new, etc.

Last edited by eviltwin; 05-16-2006 at 07:53 AM.
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fixed bridge , floating bridges , floating trems , les paul , locking nut , matic bridge , scale lengths , string guage , string tension , trem springs

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