Thicker wammy bars - Something that was mentioned in the K-7 - Jemsite
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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-02-2001, 12:32 AM Thread Starter
 
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Thicker wammy bars - Something that was mentioned in the K-7

Something that was mentioned in the korn K-7 post.

With the U-bar it should be physically easier to bend the whammy as the pressure is distributed evenly also less risk of the bar breaking.

I do think for 7 strings that the whammy bar should be slightly thicker. Hell I think teh bars should be thicker full stop.

Has anyone has thicker bars made?
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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-02-2001, 02:23 PM
 
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Thicker wammy bars

Good question, but I've never seen a thicker bar. *I've only seen 1 bar ever break.

I guess if you are real desperate for one you could probably have someone mill one for you with any type of material. *I think I'd be cool to have one made with a polished chrome plated finish...

Gabe
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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-02-2001, 04:43 PM
 
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Thicker wammy bars

Gabe, I've broken 4 Ibanez bars during my 6 year playing "career". A thicker bar would be nice.
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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-03-2001, 05:25 PM
 
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Thicker wammy bars

I actually have a thicker bar on my RG670. I found it at the bottom of the parts drawer at my local small guitar shop, and Brian sold it to me for a couple of quid, since neither of us could imagine where it came from. It's slightly different in proportion to an Ibanez bar - the plastic washers are not interchangable with "official" washers - and it's chrome, Gabe.

I wish I knew who made it, because it never gets loose like an official one and I've never seen another one. The only problem is that I used it on my old RG570 first and tore the arm holder out mid-gig. I couldn't get a replacement (Ibanez had no UK distributor at the time), so I ended up having the holder drilled out and replaced with a Schaller arm. Screw collar and all (yuk).
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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-03-2001, 10:30 PM
 
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Thicker wammy bars

I'd like to know WTF you guys are doing to break bars!!!! *Are you throwing them at other players? *Having sword fights during the drum solo? *Chopsticks? *Lawn darts? *

I've never...EEEEEEEEVVVVVVVEEEEERRRR broken a bar, and I'm brutal on trems. *Even doing the "Crossroads Shake", I've never broken a bar- and dozens of girls have seen me do that trying to get them naked (never worked).

The bars for the Edge/Lo-Pro are CAST aluminum. *By nature, cast metal (hot metal poured into a mold) is much more brittle than something that's machined (metal cut by a machine). *Pouring hot aluminum is cheaper than machining aluminum. *Cut bars isn't a bad idea, but it'll cost ya- would you pay $45 for a bar?

Before you answer that, remember: *some people are paying $45 for a JPM-style switch. *:biggrin:
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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-04-2001, 04:40 AM
 
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Thicker wammy bars

Quote:
The bars for the Edge/Lo-Pro are CAST aluminum. *By nature, cast metal (hot metal poured into a mold) is much more brittle than something that's machined (metal cut by a machine). *Pouring hot aluminum is cheaper than machining aluminum. *Cut bars isn't a bad idea, but it'll cost ya- would you pay $45 for a bar?
Hey Kevan, you might want to check your bars again dude. *I don't know who told you they were aluminum of any sort but they were full of sh*t. *First of all, just touch the bar to a pickup pole, if they were aluminum, they wouldn't be magnetic! *Second, even bar stock aluminum (not cast) would bend at that diameter of rod if you used it at all. *Cast would break almost immediatly if it was used plus if it was cast it would require some pretty fancy polishing to get it that smooth and no seam line.
The bars on the edge are your standard 4130 or so drill rod steel. *They are probably made in a 3 step process. *First a lathe (CNC most likely) will take the blank rod (they probably start with 20 foot lengths) and turn the two grooves for the bushings and turn the chamfer at the one end. *Then a form tool would part it off at the required length with the radius that's on the end of your bar. *Then the blank would go into a press form tool for the first slight bend in the longest part of the bar and then into another press form tool to put in the 85degree (or so) bend that goes into the trem.
If it was aluminum you could change the shape of it by bending it with your hands! *As far as production cost goes, in my machine shop, if I were making these bars in a production run like Ibanez does, if they were a machined bar, they would cost about $4.00 each and take about 5 minutes to make (after the time taken to build the form tools) *A cast part would cost about $9 to make and require at least 1 hour to pour, cool, and do the finish machining.
Even doing it as a one off, I could manually machine the bar and hand form it in about 25 minutes so going by our shop rate, you would be at about $25. *(all these prices are Canadian by the way)
Sorry to tell you dude, but someone was lying to you.
Jeremy



(Edited by littlegreenman at 3:42 am on Feb. 4, 2001)
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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-04-2001, 06:18 AM
 
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Thicker wammy bars

Quote:
Quote: from Kevan on 9:30 pm on Feb. 3, 2001
I'd like to know WTF you guys are doing to break bars!!!! *Are you throwing them at other players? *Having sword fights during the drum solo? *Chopsticks? *Lawn darts? *
Nope, just playing. A lot of players break Ibanez bars, the finnish wholesaler dude told me that they'll break if you use the bar in some kinda Vai manner ( meaning you'll do something else than just divebomb or do the "crossroads shake" now and then ) and somehow I didn't have a hard time believing him. They'll probably last if you treat 'em really nicely, but damn man guitars aren't supposed to be like that. They're tools, made to last, or at least should be.
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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-04-2001, 10:44 AM
 
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Thicker wammy bars

Ok just a reminder to everyone. The whammy bar was designed to be used while running parrallel to the strings (be it forward or Vai backwards) If your lazy and run it semi-perpendicular the pressure will be over doubled on the bar. Therfore breaking it under stress.

That said its kick BEEP that you guys demolish that bar in such a beautifuly scary way. How do you do it so often though.

buzz
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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-04-2001, 10:57 AM
 
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Thicker wammy bars

Jeremy- I have a tendency NOT to touch my "bar" to anothers "pole". *Call me kooky. *LOL

I think you're right about the 4130 though. *You left out a few things in your cost analysis-
1. Labor
2. Anodizing/finishing
3. Machining of the bushing slots

Can you do all that and keep it under $25 Canadian? *:biggrin:
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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-04-2001, 11:06 AM
 
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Thicker wammy bars

I've never broken a bar, but I broke the actual base of an Edge once. I was jamming along to "The Crying Machine" and went to whammy. I heard a snap and immediatly thought I broke a string. I looked down, and I was just like "WHOA! WTF?!?!"
I had just bought the guitar a couple weeks before. The former owner graciously paid for a new baseplate. I was told by Rich and Glen that I wouldn't be able to order just the baseplate, but somehow, the dealer pulled it off. I don't think it costed more than $20.
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post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-04-2001, 11:31 AM
 
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Thicker wammy bars

I could always find out if the guys at work will machine one out of Brass for ya'

Steve
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post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-04-2001, 01:31 PM
 
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Thicker wammy bars

I must admit I've never broken a bar. I just like the thick bar because it "sticks" in place all the time, something which I'm tired of the Ibanez bars not doing.

I really should put a new Edge on my 570, though. It looks very messy with the Schaller bar. And that hideous, ghastly collar...
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post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-04-2001, 01:44 PM
 
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Thicker wammy bars

Quote:
Quote: from Kevan on 9:57 am on Feb. 4, 2001
I think you're right about the 4130 though. *You left out a few things in your cost analysis-
1. Labor
2. Anodizing/finishing
3. Machining of the bushing slots

Can you do all that and keep it under $25 Canadian? *:biggrin:
Hey Kevan, I mentioned the machining of the bushing slots so yes, that includes that which would also mean I included labour. *To cut the parts on these bars is ridiculously simple. * If I was doing more than one or two, (enough to warrant a production run) They would be around $4.00 each, machining and forming included. *If it was a production run of a couple hundred, the finishing (has to be a plating, you can't anodize steel) would only be about $1.50 a part for a grand total of (gasp, omigodno) $5.50 so with mark up, I'd maybe sell them for $11.00 :biggrin:. *If doing it by hand, I could do everything for the $25.00 I mentioned, if I was thinking of it, I'd send it in with some other job that is being plated and get it done too so it might cost me $26.00 but I think if I really wanted to I could do the machining and forming in about 20 minutes so maybe it would only be $21.00.
Then!, if I really wanted to get fancy, I could heat treat the steel, make it hard (which gives it a nice black chrome look, no jokes here Kev LOL) and then anneal it so it isn't brittle. *That would take about 5 hours in the furnace but once I turn it on (no jokes again) I go away for a few hours just coming back to cool it and temper it.
and if I wanted I could fit a few bars in the furnace. *
Just so no-one asks, NO!!! I'm not going into whammy bar production!!!!
Oh yeah Kev, one thing you might be forgetting is the rod to make the bars out of, you can buy it in a nominal size (otherwise it wouldn't be drill rod :biggrin so all that you have to turn is the bushing grooves, the chamfer on the bushing end, and the radius at the far end.
C-ya
Jeremy
BTW if you're curious how they could be done for $4 in a production run,
1. loading the part in the CNC - 30 seconds
2. CNC turning the part, 30 seconds
3. Moving the part for the parting operation - 20 seconds
4. parting operation - 10 seconds
5. forming the first section in a punch press - 10 seconds
6. forming the 85 degree section in the brake - 30 seconds
7. any final hand de-burring - 30 seconds
So 2 minutes and 40 seconds later, you have a part ready for plating.
That = $2.40 for the part and I'm figuring on $1.20 for tool wear.
The only downside to the production run is this
Cost of CNC programming, (cheap for this part, maybe $30)
Cost of building form tool for first bend, probably around $700
Cost of building fixture for forming in the brake, $300
So the first one is expensive, but the truth is, if I'm going to make 10,000 parts, it ain't that bad!

(Edited by littlegreenman at 12:54 pm on Feb. 4, 2001)
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post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-04-2001, 01:59 PM
 
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Thicker wammy bars

Jeremy- I think you're confusing me with someone who's first name rhymes with "itch"; I'm not the champion of sexual references here.

I confused the anodizing and the heat-treating. *My bad.

Since you're going to get dozens of requests (even though you said you're not doing it LOL), I'll put mine in now:
I need (10) titanium bars. *7 black, 2 chrome, and 1 gold. *Same dimensions as the current bar will be fine.
:biggrin:
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post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old 02-04-2001, 02:29 PM
 
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Thicker wammy bars

Oh yeah, blah blah, sure, go ahead, change the material, I can't do it out of Titanium for that price man!!! *You check the price of Titanium lately?!?!
Can't plate it the same way either, hmmmm.........let's see, cost of Titanium, increased tooling cost, triple plating system plus agrivation pay,
I'll do all 10 for 1 DNA complete :biggrin:
Jeremy
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