Two Short Articles by Martin and Taylor about CITES - Jemsite
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post #1 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-11-2018, 08:55 PM Thread Starter
 
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Two Short Articles by Martin and Taylor about CITES

CITES and the ban on rosewood was discussed quite a bit, especially when the ban was first announced and people realized it would affect the guitar business. At the time, the people directly affected were busy trying to figure out what to do in order to do their job. The people indirectly affected were looking up CITES on Wikipedia. Now that the dust has settled, these two articles clarify CITES decision enough to offer some insight into the “what, why, and when.” All in all, I thought they were worth posting.

Chris Martin Addresses the Future of the Guitar - THE GUITAR ASSOCIATION
Bob Taylor on CITES - THE GUITAR ASSOCIATION
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post #2 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-12-2018, 01:27 AM
 
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Great articles! I can't believe the CITES committee didn't add in an exemption for musical instruments. I can certainly see the need to plant. While I'm guessing they grow way faster than tone wood trees, you don't see oil palm producers slowing down planting.
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post #3 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-12-2018, 08:35 AM
 
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Re: Two Short Articles by Martin and Taylor about CITES

What I found most interesting in the Chris Martin article was this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Martin
I think both customers and end users are conservative. It takes a while for them to move off the traditional instruments they know and love. And, more often than not, I think they don’t—they don’t embrace too much change.
I feel like this is a lesson that Ibanez continues to struggle to learn. On the one hand, their success is due to inovation, with the RG/Jem in 1987 and later 7-strings and other stuff. But on the other hand, they seem to have a hard time figuring out where to stop when it comes to innovating.

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post #4 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-12-2018, 08:56 AM
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Re: Two Short Articles by Martin and Taylor about CITES

good articles thx for sharing. It's sorta surprising these companies have not invested more and earlier in planting, but that's a side effect of getting woods from regions in economic despair. Especially given the fact that ecology201 teaches you that new growth trees are highly beneficial vs old trees which are not oxygen producers (just H2O & CO2 storage vessels).


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Originally Posted by Takin' a Ride View Post
What I found most interesting in the Chris Martin article was this:
Quote:
Chris Martin - I think both customers and end users are conservative. It takes a while for them to move off the traditional instruments they know and love. And, more often than not, I think they don’t—they don’t embrace too much change.
I feel like this is a lesson that Ibanez continues to struggle to learn. On the one hand, their success is due to inovation, with the RG/Jem in 1987 and later 7-strings and other stuff. But on the other hand, they seem to have a hard time figuring out where to stop when it comes to innovating.
If C.Martin published that on youtube the comments would be comical but he's right on of course.

I REALLY hate to comment on Ibanez whatsoever on this forum but Ibanez "innovation" was GOOD QUALITY AND DISTRIBUTION AT GOOD PRICE. They should never be equated or compared to Martin Co.
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post #5 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-12-2018, 09:13 AM
 
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Interesting to see the mainstream picking up on this.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/12/guit...-rosewood.html
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post #6 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-12-2018, 01:10 PM
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Re: Two Short Articles by Martin and Taylor about CITES

Great articles! .. it's good to have a different point of view. You can see, the time is coming where wood will have to be replaced with other material. If it does not significantly affect on sound, I will not have a problem with it. Time will tell.

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good articles thx for sharing. It's sorta surprising these companies have not invested more and earlier in planting, but that's a side effect of getting woods from regions in economic despair. Especially given the fact that ecology201 teaches you that new growth trees are highly beneficial vs old trees which are not oxygen producers (just H2O & CO2 storage vessels).
Forest is more complicated organism. For example, old trees do not allow light to the young ones (only about 3%), which is why they grow slower and their structure is stronger. (I mean exactly the beech forest).
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post #7 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-12-2018, 01:16 PM
 
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Re: Two Short Articles by Martin and Taylor about CITES

"and the maples want more sunlight, but the oaks just shake theeeeeir heads" (sorry, had to).
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post #8 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-12-2018, 01:24 PM
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Re: Two Short Articles by Martin and Taylor about CITES

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"and the maples want more sunlight, but the oaks just shake theeeeeir heads" (sorry, had to).
Hahaha ... You do not even know how close to the truth you are.
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post #9 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-12-2018, 01:47 PM
 
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Re: Two Short Articles by Martin and Taylor about CITES

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Hahaha ... You do not even know how close to the truth you are.
Ha, no no I get it.
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post #10 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-12-2018, 01:54 PM
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Re: Two Short Articles by Martin and Taylor about CITES

Any company that uses lots of specialty woods would have partnered with any of the many logging conglomerates in sustainable supplies long ago. The rape and pillage of the earths resources has been going on since man discovered a use for them so there is nothing new here. When the Pilgrims came over they were amazed at something that had been long lost in Europe, old growth forests. Which we immediately started to decimate, to the point we had to protect the forests that are still left and move to sustainable forestry.

From everything I've been reading I'm not getting a fuzzy feeling that the convention is going to allow any exclusions and this is just the new normal, so get used to it. Then again it's not like homo sapiens will be still be around in 200 years anyway.
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post #11 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-12-2018, 03:37 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Two Short Articles by Martin and Taylor about CITES

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Originally Posted by mike570 View Post
Interesting to see the mainstream picking up on this.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/12/guit...-rosewood.html
When I say “jump,” CNBC asks “how high?”

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Originally Posted by Rich View Post
Any company that uses lots of specialty woods would have partnered with any of the many logging conglomerates in sustainable supplies long ago. The rape and pillage of the earths resources has been going on since man discovered a use for them so there is nothing new here. When the Pilgrims came over they were amazed at something that had been long lost in Europe, old growth forests. Which we immediately started to decimate, to the point we had to protect the forests that are still left and move to sustainable forestry.

From everything I've been reading I'm not getting a fuzzy feeling that the convention is going to allow any exclusions and this is just the new normal, so get used to it. Then again it's not like homo sapiens will be still be around in 200 years anyway.
If an exclusion for musical instruments can not be agreed upon over a 3 year period (the time between meetings), then people are not putting any effort into it.

Keith Richards will still be around. If cocaine and time can’t kill him, what can?
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post #12 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-12-2018, 05:24 PM
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Re: Two Short Articles by Martin and Taylor about CITES

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Originally Posted by Formerly Given To Fly View Post

If an exclusion for musical instruments can not be agreed upon over a 3 year period (the time between meetings), then people are not putting any effort into it.

Keith Richards will still be around. If cocaine and time can’t kill him, what can?
More of both

Piano's all had ivory keys, does that mean we should be able to spear a couple elephants a year so pianos and violin bows can get some ivory?

Bottom line this. Martin and Taylor have both said "they seem receptive" to exclusions, and IMO, they'll hear them out, give them possibly approving nods, because the one thing they want most, besides saving the planet, is to get these CEO's out of their office. And when the board meets, the bottom line is the bottom line. Guitars may only use 50 metric tons, but that's still 50 metric tons. Just like ivory, go find something else to use! And as Taylor stated, expect more woods to be added. They could care less what your guitar sounds like, the forests are endangered, it was asked for by the countries where the forests live, it's going to remain as it is, if not get more stringent.

They are allowing all personal carry, you can export for commercial with the right permits. As far as CITES is concerned you have everything you need to carry out business legally. They're not responsible if US Fish and Wildlife is far too understaffed to handle 40,000 permit applications, that's the US's problem and US manufacturers problem, not theirs. And the current "administration" [manchild in charge] needs to staff the departments effectively to do the job, right after they appoint another 30 ambassadors and open another 20 coal mines. They have priorities......
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post #13 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-12-2018, 06:22 PM
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Someone please link to a reference where a beurocratic law or rule has effectively stopped criminal activity. Rotflmao this is as laughably stupid as gun control marches that happily ignore 17,000 willfull killings in USA last year.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...us-since-1990/
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post #14 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-12-2018, 07:54 PM
 
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Re: Two Short Articles by Martin and Taylor about CITES

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich View Post
Any company that uses lots of specialty woods would have partnered with any of the many logging conglomerates in sustainable supplies long ago. The rape and pillage of the earths resources has been going on since man discovered a use for them so there is nothing new here. When the Pilgrims came over they were amazed at something that had been long lost in Europe, old growth forests. Which we immediately started to decimate, to the point we had to protect the forests that are still left and move to sustainable forestry.

From everything I've been reading I'm not getting a fuzzy feeling that the convention is going to allow any exclusions and this is just the new normal, so get used to it. Then again it's not like homo sapiens will be still be around in 200 years anyway.
Well if Kurzweil is right we're proper f**ked before that.
I eagerly await our new robot overlords.
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post #15 of 20 (permalink) Old 04-12-2018, 08:31 PM
 
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Re: Two Short Articles by Martin and Taylor about CITES

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If C.Martin published that on youtube the comments would be comical but he's right on of course.

I REALLY hate to comment on Ibanez whatsoever on this forum but Ibanez "innovation" was GOOD QUALITY AND DISTRIBUTION AT GOOD PRICE. They should never be equated or compared to Martin Co.
It's a tangential reference. This is an Ibanez forum so I'm discussing Ibanez. A significant person in the guitar industry commented that guitar buyers are conservative and resistant to change. That has nothing to do with a specific brand of guitars, it's just a general comment.

It's an interesting comment in relation to Ibanez if you look at what they tried do do for roughly 10 years starting in 2003. They pushed technical innovations and their users complained about many of them until they switched back to their old technology. In hindsight it's interesting how long they stuck with their new and "better" technology before acquiescing.
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