Why can't Celestions not handle 7 and 8 string guitars? - Jemsite
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post #1 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-04-2013, 08:13 PM Thread Starter
 
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Why can't Celestions handle 7 and 8 string guitars?

I don't know what typical Celestions in a 4x12 are rated at, but they kind of get "floppy" sounding with the 7th and 8th string instruments and detuned stuff. It's what has kept me from going into extra strings.

Is there a good speaker for those lows? Before I tried a lot of that 7 and 8 string sounding stuff (even six string tuned to a gothic C#) I got some 100w Jackson speakers with Marshall and they handled big sounding stuff well but I still liked the vintage Celestions for softer music and they had subtlety. The Celestions seem easy to push over the top and that sound of almost being overtaken is amazing on six string guitars with moderate or lower output. When introduced to 7th string, it gets overtaken but in a bad, floppy, farty way. I know Korn records with gain really low and then boost it up from there in studio, but for just practice and live, I like that gain tone but then the speakers can't take that low C#, C, or B. I guess if I had a major PA I could go low gain, mic the amp, and then get a sound but I would rather have right amp or right speaker if there is anything out there. Someone I talked to said only guitar amp that could handle those frequencies and hold together is the Fender Bassman, which makes sense since it can handle even the bigger strings found on bass. Of course, with heavy distortion, which was not present in the days of the Bassman, it may still be too much for extended range strings and/or tuning.

There's no mystery to smaller guitar amps not doing well with the big 7th and 8th strings, but is this more a speaker issue and not an amp issue for amps of all sizes?

That being said I know plenty of players who like that raggedy Ann slashed speaker sound. There's kind of a delay in a floppy speaker that is its own effect but I don't like it for everything.

Last edited by 63Blazer; 05-04-2013 at 08:31 PM.
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post #2 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-04-2013, 10:43 PM
 
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Re: Why can't Celestions not handle 7 and 8 string guitars?

check out fane medusas dude. Pricey, but if you like heavy bass and quality sounds, they are tough to beat sir.
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post #3 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-04-2013, 10:43 PM
 
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Re: Why can't Celestions not handle 7 and 8 string guitars?

Celestion makes an awfully wide range of speakers... Do you have a specific model(s) that are sounding this way to you?

For example, I would expect greenbacks to sound exactly as you described when playing a 7/8 through them because they are voiced very strongly for mids - which is why screaming solos sound great through them & really cut through the mix. But V30's on the other hand are much darker, and I know a lot of 7/8 players that LOVE the Mesa through V30 sound...

Some more specifics on your rig, and specifically which Celestions your using (and unhappy with) would be helpful!

Cheers!
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post #4 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-04-2013, 11:02 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Why can't Celestions not handle 7 and 8 string guitars?

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Originally Posted by kfssdude View Post
Celestion makes an awfully wide range of speakers... Do you have a specific model(s) that are sounding this way to you?

For example, I would expect greenbacks to sound exactly as you described when playing a 7/8 through them because they are voiced very strongly for mids - which is why screaming solos sound great through them & really cut through the mix. But V30's on the other hand are much darker, and I know a lot of 7/8 players that LOVE the Mesa through V30 sound...

Some more specifics on your rig, and specifically which Celestions your using (and unhappy with) would be helpful!

Cheers!
I detuned my 6 string from B to B from 11-60 roundwounds and both times on different rigs (JCM 900 with 8x12 Marshall cab with one straight and one slanted, and JCM 2000 with 4x12 straight Marshall cab) made it kind of floppy sounding. I did try some standard tuned guitars (Les Paul Custom with EMGs and it was only somewhat farty) and Les Paul Standard with stock humbuckers (probably Shaws) and that was much better.

My guess is that those Celestions stock in Marshall cabs were not designed for that heavy low B. Now a 7 string would have that low B, around a 60, and the other six strings, too.

First I want a practice amp, maybe bass amp, and then come up with option for the low B terrorizing the Celestion. Could I go very clean with little bass/midrange and then boost it with pedal later?
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post #5 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-04-2013, 11:24 PM
 
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Re: Why can't Celestions not handle 7 and 8 string guitars?

Just buy a Mesa and be done with it :P
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post #6 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-04-2013, 11:36 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Why can't Celestions not handle 7 and 8 string guitars?

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Just buy a Mesa and be done with it :P
It's not my rig but drummers. I think I can get a simple 2x12 closed back with some heavy speakers and see what happens. I think the standard Celestions found in Marshalls are probably perfect for older style hard rock via six strings and most likely with passive pickups.

The whole new paradigm with ultra hot pickups, much of which is active, and 7 strings and 8 strings, probably calls for a heavier speaker, unless this whole rig needs a true bass amp. I know a bass amp is probably great for small practice but on rig level I don't know what to do.

It's all trial and error anyway and I think for the most part, nothing is accepted as the go to rig for doing the extended range or really low strings yet.

Last edited by 63Blazer; 05-04-2013 at 11:44 PM.
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post #7 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-05-2013, 12:25 AM
 
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Re: Why can't Celestions not handle 7 and 8 string guitars?

Not sure why you would think using a Bass amp is something to consider, but my Mesa 2x12 recto cab and Solo 50 Mesa Head, is more then enough to handle 7 or 8 string...

As far as Im concerned Mesa is the way to go... Especially the Cabs..
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post #8 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-05-2013, 01:04 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Why can't Celestions not handle 7 and 8 string guitars?

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Originally Posted by IbanezFreak777 View Post
Not sure why you would think using a Bass amp is something to consider, but my Mesa 2x12 recto cab and Solo 50 Mesa Head, is more then enough to handle 7 or 8 string...

As far as Im concerned Mesa is the way to go... Especially the Cabs..
For the 7th string, maybe the Mesa is the only way to go. Korn gets around any low issues with Marshalls by low gain and then mic it up through board. But they swear by Boogie. But for 8th string, that is clearly in bass guitar territory, sonically, so the Fender Bassman is looking very attractive to me right now. I know some enterprising musicians concurrently use both and I guess that makes sense. But if there is ever a 9 string to hit the stores, then we are clearly asking for a bass amp imho.
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post #9 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-05-2013, 06:20 AM
 
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Re: Why can't Celestions not handle 7 and 8 string guitars?

Try a deeper speakercabinet.
Lower freqeuncies just need more space(depth) to sound right.
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post #10 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-05-2013, 06:31 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Why can't Celestions not handle 7 and 8 string guitars?

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Originally Posted by Death.by.G-string View Post
Try a deeper speakercabinet.
Lower freqeuncies just need more space(depth) to sound right.
Other than Fender Bassman and other bass amps, I didn't think of the depth.

Thanks, and that explains why the jazz guy with big 7 string hollowbody I saw recently used a very powerful (200 watts?) and deep combo amp unlike anything I have ever seen. It's deep like that and resembles a bass amp like a compact SWR. I guess if you don't give the big 7th and 8th air, it will sound compromised.

http://www.bjsbars.com/evans/evans_re200.html

I honestly thought I blew three different 4x12 Marshall cabinets that belonged to other band member but explains why it's OK with standard tuning on six string guitar. We do play loud so that in itself probably moves enough air for just the six string E to E tuning.
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post #11 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-05-2013, 06:32 AM
 
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Re: Why can't Celestions not handle 7 and 8 string guitars?

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Originally Posted by 63Blazer View Post
For the 7th string, maybe the Mesa is the only way to go. Korn gets around any low issues with Marshalls by low gain and then mic it up through board. But they swear by Boogie. But for 8th string, that is clearly in bass guitar territory, sonically, so the Fender Bassman is looking very attractive to me right now. I know some enterprising musicians concurrently use both and I guess that makes sense. But if there is ever a 9 string to hit the stores, then we are clearly asking for a bass amp imho.
Do bass amps come with a suitable high gain channel, or will you add a pedal or Axe FX ??
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post #12 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-05-2013, 06:42 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Why can't Celestions not handle 7 and 8 string guitars?

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Originally Posted by IbanezFreak777 View Post
Do bass amps come with a suitable high gain channel, or will you add a pedal or Axe FX ??
I am going to have to get deep cab bass amp for the very low freq stuff and get equally good stomp box. I did see a small boutique box that is modeled after Ibanez Tube Screamer and this thing boosts anything from guitars to keyboard to bass, from no distortion to typical Tube Screamer dirt!

I really dig the rare 10 string guitars I have seen here, too. I didn't think you could replace the traditional 4 string bass but Animals as Leaders do just fine and I like their overall sound which is big, yet crisp.
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post #13 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-05-2013, 02:35 PM
 
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Re: Why can't Celestions not handle 7 and 8 string guitars?

I use a Genz Benz G-flex 4x12 with 7 strings. Sounds amazing. You might try one of those if you can find one.
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post #14 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-05-2013, 02:56 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Why can't Celestions not handle 7 and 8 string guitars?

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I use a Genz Benz G-flex 4x12 with 7 strings. Sounds amazing. You might try one of those if you can find one.
I often thought of those, too for the detuned 6, 7, and 8 string. I think I am going to go with Fender Bassman or amp with very similar voicing. I think if I go to the 8 and tune that lowest string an octave below the E on the sixth string, that Bassman should handle both clean and distorted perfectly. Even on a standard tuned six string, some players like the Bassman. Luckily there's a used place near me that gets all era Bassman heads in and then with a closed back cabinet and highly rated enough speaker, not the 30w. Celestion, then I should be OK.
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post #15 of 18 (permalink) Old 05-05-2013, 09:10 PM
 
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Re: Why can't Celestions not handle 7 and 8 string guitars?

V30's are fine with low tunings,awesome in most cases....but oversize cabs are the way to go.....
Mesa (V30),
Marshall mode 4(custom V30),
Blackstar series one (V30),
Genz Benz gflex (Genz Benz speaker based on celestion)
....the list goes on,plenty of oversize to choose from..

Also,always buy the straight face cabs.....you get more air and size than the slant version obviously.

Always caulk your cabs also,just like car subwoofer enclosures....cheap and easy and tightens up all cabs noticeably.

If you want to go further add a strip quilting foam down the middle of the cab seperating it into 2 halves,this foam is thin and air flow is not restricted in anyway.
This stops sound waves bouncing around inside which is responsible for boomy-ness and adds more surface area inside thus creating more size.

I have done both to all my cabs for years and it works,but the caulking is a must if you only do one thing......TIGHT.

I'm getting a new Blackstar series one cab soon(not the series one 'pro',thats the standard size version like a Marshall 1960),better value than the mesa and equivalent in quality.

For the record my band stuff is all tuned down to C standard played on 25.5 inch scale.
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