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11K views 34 replies 10 participants last post by  littlegreenman 
#1 ·
How much trouble is it to pull the fretboard off the neck?  Or maybe it's not that hard, so rathar.......how difficult would it be to change the vine inlay colors?  Is there just a piece of green posterboard under the clear plastic?  I doubt it, but ya never know.
 
#5 ·
Changing Vine inlay colors

Cheaper than what? Man, taking a fretboard off is a major pain in the @ss. The things got to be refretted anyway if you change the inlay (or should be), and there is certainly no need to remove the fretboard to do that. Anyone doing inlays is (or should) be set up with some type of neck jig to comfortably hold the entire neck while doing the inlay. The luthiers I know don't do the inlay until the fretboard is on and shaped on a brand new untouched neck.
Maybe I'm missing something here, but I don't think it's worth pulling the whole fretboard for an inlay.
Just my $.02 Canadian (so really, less than $.01 US)
Jeremy
 
#7 ·
Changing Vine inlay colors

I've done a few fretboard swaps in my day. Let's start with some myth crushing....

Myth: "Taking a fretboard off is a major pain in the azz".
Crush: No- cutting out a carved top body is a pain in the azz. Removing a fretboard is quite easy. Not as easy as turning a volume knob, but still fairly easy.

Myth: "Inlays are cut after the fretboard is on the neck".
Crush: Inlays are cut both before AND after the board is attached to the neck. It's really a matter of who's doing the inlay. Ron Thorn (Thorn Inlay; does a lot of Brian Moore Customs stuff) doesn't usually remove the board to do the inlay. Hoshino (makers of the JEM, UV and other high-quality guitars) drills the dot inlays PRIOR to the board being attached to the neck. There is no right or wrong way here. Both ways work just fine.

Myth: "All the frets need to be removed before you take the fretboard off the neck."
Crush: Nope. It's actually better to leave the frets in! Why? If you don't leave them in there, the rosewood/maple/ebony will curl up like an armadillo. The tang of the frets keeps the board from going nutty.

Myth: "JEM fretboards (pyramid/vine/etc.) can't be used on an S-series neck."
Crust: Yes, they can. There are a few minor mods that need to be done, but it can happen.

I'll take some pics soon and show a little of the project I have going here. Anyone looking for a 22-fret, dot-inlayed, JEM-profile neck? :)
 
#8 ·
Changing Vine inlay colors

Well gee Kevan, thanks for clearing that up.

Looks like those myths really needed to be cleared up.

It was a simple question of, how hard is it?
I appreciate everybodies concern for my neck, but all I needed to hear, was a "Very hard" or "not really too bad"
Myth: I can afford to send my guitars off and have all this custom work done to them.
Crush: I cant
I trust my workmanship. If the project turned out to be relatively simple, I would pursue it further. If not, end of thought.

So tell me Kevan, since you seem to have the only firm grip on the process so far, what else does Hoshino do to get the vine inlays. Is it colored plastic on the bottom and a clear piece placed on top, or is it a clear resin poured on top to ensure a nice tight fit?
 
#9 ·
Changing Vine inlay colors

Tom- you're very welcome.

It is a project you can do if you're famaliar with wood, glue and plastic and how steam/heat interacts with them. I do NOT have a full wood shop here (contrary to Rachel's thoughts that the kitchen is actually my shop...LOL), but I make due with the tools and facilities I have. The results are, so far, great.

Prep:
•Remove ALL hardware except for the nut. Locking nuts can be removed, but I like to leave standard nuts on so I don't have to re-measure when I attach the new board on. Lazy? Maybe. Smart? Yup. :)
•Leave the frets in. Your board will curl if you take them out. You can do fretwork once the board is on it's new neck.

Tools I use:
1. Regular household iron. It must have the "steam" option. It'll save you some time if it has the "steam full on" button.
2. 2.5" or 3" putty knife/paint scraper. Use your Dremel to make that edge sharper than Dennis Miller taking apart GWBush. :) Possible subsitute: Steak knife. NOT the one with the serrated edge; make sure the edge is straight and sharp. I still use this one on occasion. It's pretty damn sturdy.
3. Razor blade. Preferably the rectangular kind, but it doesn't really matter as long as it's SHARP.
4. T-shirts. You'll need at least 3. Make sure they're either old, or not yours.
5. Ball-peen hammer. Doesn't have to be a 12lb. sledge...just something small you can use force with.
6. Extra bucket of patience. This is the most important thing you can bring with you.

NEVER EVER EVER NEVER EVER NEVER start at the nut-end of the fretboard. This is far too visible to the public and usually contains wood you'll need later on. Don't start here. Go to the other end.

Start at the very butt-end of the neck. Look for the joint where the fretboard meets the neck. Put the razor and hammer away; we won't be touching them for a LONG time.

Get the iron. Set it on "WOOL" if it has such a setting. The middle of the "steam" settings is fine...maybe a touch hotter. Let the iron warm up. Now, with rosewood/ebony/darker woods, I set the iron on the fretboard bare (no shirt). On maple/lighter wood boards, I like to slide the neck into the t-shirt, as if it's wearing it (i.e. only one layer of cloth). There is no flame that touches the wood, but I like to be careful. You can put the t-shirt on any board. It's just a personal preferance. Put the other shirts under the neck to support it's head and to keep it from getting dinged.

Set the iron on the end of the neck...right on top of the frets (hot side down for all you Harmony Central writers). Make sure the steam is going. Leave the iron there for about 5 minutes, or until the steam runs out on the iron. NEVER EVER EVER NEVER let it out of your sight!!!!! Keep a watchful eye on the neck and the iron. When the steam is done, it's time to get that razor in there.

Insert the razor at the seam of the neck and board directly at the back of the butt end. Push (with your hand at first) very firmly. You want that razor to get between the glue and the board. Be careful- don't carve any wood away from the neck or board. This is probably the toughest part. Move the razor from the center, to the sides..opening up the first 1mm of the board. This is VERY tedious and takes some time. It may require more heat. If so, put more water in the iron and hit it again with the hot steam. You'll be a pro at ironing when you're done with this. :)

Now that the razor is in there, we need a little more "umph" to lift that board off the neck. This is where your scraper/knife comes in handy. Once the razor is in the neck (stuck fairly good), insert the scraper UNDERNEATH the board, but above the razor. This should put you right at Glue Level, and point the scraper towards the neck instead of the fretboard. Give it a VERY LIGHT tap with the hammer to seat it in the gap. You may have to work it a little left-to-right. That's fine, but make sure you've given the board PLENTY of steam heat. Keep water in that iron and keep it on the board when you're not tapping on the paint scraper.

NEVER EVER NEVER EVER EVER "lift up" on the scraper/knife. Let it work for you. ALWAYS keep it angled down...towards the wood of the neck. NEVER lift up on the scraper/knife.

Now that your scraper is seated, grab the iron again. Set it on the next 8 or so frets. Let it ride that neck (remember- steam full on!) for another 5 minutes or so. Check it with a LIGHT TAP from the hammer to see if the scraper can move a little. If it moves, give it a few more taps...get another 5mm of board off (maybe more, maybe less). ONLY TAP UNTIL THE BOARD IS STRUGGLING. If you feel resistance, STOP. Apply heat/steam and come back and do another 3mm.

No- this does NOT take 5 minutes to do. A fretboard can take me up to 2 hours. It's not speedy, but it works great. If it takes you an hour to go 5 frets, you're doing great.

Even if you keep good heat/steam on the board and point that scraper/knife blade towards the neck (away from the fretboard), you will probably have a few tiny chunks of fretboard that just plain don't want to come unglued. Don't worry about those; no one will ever see them. If it's a big chunk (the size of your pinky), try to chizel it off the neck later, and glue it back into place on the back of the board. Pain in the azz, but glued wood is stronger than regular wood, and we want a strong fretboard, don't we? :)

When you reach the last few frets (5 thru 1), you'll want to be very careful- JEM inlays are big, and don't flex as much as wood does. Plus, you need to be careful of that wood that's under the nut. It already has two holes in it; we don't want any more.

Go VERY slow. Take your time. Use LOTS of steam/heat. If you're impatinet, don't do anything above.

Now that your fretboard is off, and your neck is bare, you'll be able to see your truss rod and other stuff- bits of wood, glue stuff..all that needs to be touch-sanded off the neck. Only use 400 grit or above on that. JEM and Wizard necks are thin enough. :) Also, as tempting as it may be, DO NOT flatten out your fretboard on the coffee table. It will have a slight upward arc to it. That's completely normal. You should really just park the board in a safe place until it comes time to attach it to the new neck.

If you have any doubts as to doing this by yourself, do what I did my first time: I bought a $5 POS neck from a local shop (I think it was a Hondo neck). I practiced on a few of them before attempting my Novax fretboard.

I'm sure glad I did.

I'm beat. I'll finish this verbal project in the next 48 hours. I promise. Let me get some pics going; they really do speak a thousand words (which is slightly smaller than this post. LOL)
 
#11 ·
Changing Vine inlay colors

You owe me. :) I think a Fretwear UVMC should cover it.

I would have suggested Jim Donahue's CD Book (available at VintageIbanez.com), but fretboard removal is the only thing NOT in his book.

Everyone should pick it up anyway. It's cheap and has cool background music.
 
#14 ·
Changing Vine inlay colors

How much trouble is it to pull the fretboard off the neck? Or maybe it's not that hard, so rathar.......how difficult would it be to change the vine inlay colors? Is there just a piece of green posterboard under the clear plastic? I doubt it, but ya never know.
I would highly recommend not attempting any of the above on a neck you enjoy and appreciate. To be honest you stand a great chance of ruining it!I would lay odds on it. All for what, changing the inlay color???

Unless you are capable of doing a re-fret and fret level, i highly recommend against this. Also be prepared to clamp, etc the neck in hopes of restoring proper 'relief' and curve to the board.

If you're hell bent on inlay changing i would leave the board intact and remove each inlay one by one. You can then glue in the new ones and one-by-one level the inlays to the board.

If you want to tear off a fretboard, buy a new blank. Chances are it's better than the original one and will improve the guitar in a substantive manner, offering thicker and better wood... glen
 
#15 ·
Changing Vine inlay colors

Amazing. I actually agree with Glen for once. :)

DO NOT remove the fretboard on your prized JEM10 as your first project. Practice on 10 or 12 crappy necks before you even THINK of doing something like that.

His suggestion of buying a new fretboard is good too. They're not too expensive and will guarantee you a nice flat gluing surface underneath. As a bonus, I LOVE the look of no-inlay boards. Some boards come pre-fretted (some touch up and you're ready to rock).

The vine inlays are made of a hard, clear plastic material- maybe Lucite. The back of the plastic is painted (green, blue, whatever) then the pieces are cut to fit.
The dot inlays (on the S-series neck I took apart) are courtesy of little circles of white plastic. They're not very thick, but the fretboard is drilled completely through. I'll double check on these.

One little tidbit that I left out of the instructional post:
•Unscrew/loosen the truss rod all the way. You can even leave a few threads showing as a constant reminder that it's not tight.

Pictures of my project(s) are being taken today....on the leather couch, of course. :)
 
#17 ·
Changing Vine inlay colors

You're very welcome. But get comfy when I post about attaching the fretboards. :)

Some notes:
•The vine inlays are indeed plastic. The back is painted green, then white over the green (to give it a nice glow; otherwise it looks like Army green. Who wants that? Oh yeah- JP does....skip that...LOL)
•After speaking with a TRUE professional about this subject, I found out that my "2 hours" is FAR too quick. He said that 3-4 hours is more like it. TAKE YOUR SWEET F-ING TIME IF YOU DO THIS! DO NOT RUSH!
•He also recommended removing the frets prior to board removal. I think this is a good call (as the board is removed, it concaves, putting unnecessary pressure between wood and fret; the fret wins and this causes the fret slots to widen a tad). I would recommend a FULL & COMPLETE fret job either way.

I now have to go clean off the couch and take some pics.
 
#20 ·
Changing Vine inlay colors

Greg-
It sounds 10x fiercer than it really is. It's the "visual demolition" that's tough to swallow (if that makes ANY sense).

To see what this little mod is going to go on, you'll have to do a little math.
Take a look at this picture.
Now you have to guess which neck I'd like to change from 6 to 12 with a vined fretboard. :)
 
#21 ·
Changing Vine inlay colors

Ok...who's comfy? Good. Here's the next part.

Stuff you'll need:
•C-Clamps (at least 3) They can be purchased at Home Depot for about $2 each.
•Zip Ties. This is mainly a personal thing, but they're handy around the rest of the house too.
•Wood Shims. These are mainly used for shimming doors and the like, but work good for a lot of guitar projects. They're nice and thin and cut easily. About $2 for a bag of 20.
•*****. These are only for trimming the ends on the zip ties and for removing them when all is said and done.
•Wood Glue. Don't get super-glue, or anything else. Get a really nice bottle of GOOD wood glue. (For all you Harmony Central writers, Elmers White is NOT good wood glue. Save that for your construction paper projects with Ms. Wilson after recess.)
•Masking Tape. The wider the better. Use it liberally.
•Sanding sponge. I love these things. Most come with two grits (one on each side). Get a medium grit one.
•Scotchbrite pad. I love these things too. It will smooth out wood, but leave it rough enough for a good glue-to-wood stick factor.

Some notes prior to getting started-
This project is a bit different than a standard fretboard removal. How?
1. I didn't need to save the "under the nut" section of rosewood from the vine inlayed neck...because it was going on a guitar with a standard nut already attached.
2. I removed the entire vine fretboard, INCLUDING the under-the-nut section. I will add a chunk of rosewood to the S-series neck after I apply the fretboard. This will be nice because instead of shimming, I can lightly sand under the nut for perfect height and keep some of that wood tone.
3. The little bit of "extra" wood at the end of the fretboard on the JEM necks (underneath to support those last few frets) will be removed and attached on the new neck. I'll use a Dremel cutting tool AFTER the swap is complete and attach it. A tiny bit of maple filler may be used to get the length correct.

Prior to getting going, I'd like to mention that it's a good idea to tape up the headstock and/or any other parts of the guitar that will be visible when complete. You might ding it or have a zip tie edge slip and scrape the edge, or a clamp move and slide across the back of the neck....it's just for your own piece of mind. I didn't tape the headstock this time purely because it's the example today. Do yourself a favor and waste the tape. It's inexpensive, but the value is immeasurable.

Go get your fretboard. While supporting the face of it (BARELY any pressure at all), sand it down with the sanding sponge. Be sure to "curl up" the sides of the sponge. Otherwise, you'll have rounded inner-edges on your fretboard. That would be bad. You need a fairly rough surface on the bottom of the board. You want the glue to have some nooks and crannies to get into to adhere; smooth isn't so good in this case. Don't go above 400 grit. Sand the face of the neck too. Don't forget to curl the sponge a bit so you don't dull the edges of the neck. Run the Scotchbrite pad over it a few times as well.

Note: As tempting as it is, don't pull the truss rod out. More than likely, it's glued or seated in there. Just leave it UN-tightened and in the channel. Please. Thank you.

Now that the board and neck are prepped, let's do a dry run. Get your shims, clamps, and that roll of tape. Lay the neck face down on your t-shirt. Run two (or three, or four, or ten) strips of tape down the ENTIRE length of the back of the neck. This keeps glue, sweat, clamps, shims, etc. from actually touching the back of the neck. You can tape the back of the headstock too; just in case.

OK, let's get to making that "sandwich".

Flip the neck over. Go get the fretboard. Place the fretboard on the neck in it's main position. Place a shim on the top of the fretboard. Now, get another shim, and add it directly opposite the top shim onto the back of the neck. Grab a healthy strip of masking tape, and tape this "sandwich" together. If you're looking at it from the side, it should go (top to bottom):
-Shim
-Fretboard
-Neck
-Shim
...and there should be a piece of tape holding this all together for inspection.

I use the shims to work together- they're triangular shape helps when you want to "overlap" them and apply pressure over a large area. Utilize that option on the TOP section of the board only. On the back of the neck, try to just use them singly- they flex better around the curve of the neck, head joint, heel joint, etc., and there's less chance of denting because of too much pressure from the clamp. If you're so inclined, break the shims in half and only use the thinnest part on the back of the neck. This will get you a nice curve, and lower your chances of denting the back.

Grab your C-clamps and space them appropriately/evenly along the length of the neck. You don't need to measure and get exact distances; just use your eyes. Set the first clamp in place and make sure it's snugging up the "sandwich" we've created. DO NOT tighten the clamps at this point; you only want them tight enough so that the C-clamps don't slip off if you lift the neck up. Don't go any tighter...yet. Just get the approximate size needed, and give it a half-turn more to snug it up. You're still only testing now. Go down the neck and snug up the other parts of the "sandwich".

Measure twice; cut once.

Now that we've got a nice looking hero sandwich going, grab a handful of zip ties. These are just that little bit extra so you can sleep that night. I usually place a zip tie every 2 frets, and one specifically for the nut area. They're not as good as 10 more clamps, but...they're cheap and can do a lot in a tiny space. Count out as many as you need, and grab a few extra just in case. Keep them close by (back pocket).

Remember your placement of the shims along the board and the back of the neck. Remove the clamps and the tape holding your the "sandwich" together. Go get your wood glue.

Now, for this, you're gonna have to work quickly because glue is drying while you're getting things together. If you've prepared your shims and clamps, this shouldn't take very long.
Lay the neck flat on your work surface. Spread a nice bead of glue around the edges, the inside, along the trussrod, and specifically, at the base of the nut and the end of the neck. Use your finger to smear it around and get a nice full area of coverage. Don't leave any wood bare- it should all have some glue on it. Take your fretboard (no glue on the back of the fretboard; you can if you want, but it'll just get squeezed out) and place it about 1/2" away from the nut. Put the shims back in their places (top and bottom), and "snug up" the clamp closest to the nut- Not too tight- we're gonna slide the fretboard up- and do the zip ties and other clamps in a minute...

With the first clamp BARELY on, push (with your fingers/hand) the fretboard toward the nut. This should spread the glue under the board (covering possible missed spots) and get you a nice solid grip at the nut. Some glue may squeeze out from the sides and top of the nut area- just remove it with your finger for now (we can clean it up later).

Ok- so your board is on, and snugged up against the nut. Make sure it's ALLIGNED! This is SO important. You can line it up with your eyes, or use the edge of your fingernail to see if they match up. You'll be sanding the edges a little later on, but for now, get the board lined up as best you can.

Yank the zip ties from your back pocket and attach them (evenly, every 2 or 3 frets) between the clamps. Try to get the locking part of the tie under a section of shim; away from back or edge of the neck, or the face of the fretboard- they're pretty tough and can dent wood. Be careful. Also, I use a zip tie right at the nut area. The first shim is "backed away" enough for me to get a tie under there, and I can put the locking part on top of the shim (on the back of the neck) for safety. This one I consider very important. Get the zip ties nice and tight, but only by hand! DO NOT use pliers or anything else to get them tighter. You can, however, use the ***** to nip off the stringy ends what will, in time, poke you where you don't want to be poked. Plus, I think it looks more professional. LOL

When you're sure it's still alligned, get to clamping.

With the clamps, I usually start at the nut end, and work my way down, but it really doesn't matter. What does matter is that you don't clamp TOO hard. This is a tough one to describe, but just get the clamps on "good and tight". If you're denting the shims, you might be a bit heavy on the hand...and can back them off a touch. If a shim falls out when you pick up the neck, go tighter. When you see glue squeezing out the sides, you're on the right track. Try to use your best judgement on how "tight" tight really is.

Continually check the board allignment as you tighten each clamp.

You're glued. Let it sit at the VERY LEAST overnight (8-10 hours) and let that glue dry. I like for my necks to sit for 2-3 DAYS before I do anything else to them. I want that glue to be good and dry. The longer it sits, the dryer it gets.

I think that's enough for now. We'll get into the final finishing of this particular swap (hint: JEM=42mm nut width and S-series neck=43mm nut width, so we're gonna have to do some sanding on both). If you guys want, I can also get into the rosewood under-the-nut rosewood replacement and the under-the-last-few-frets wood additon as well. Those are fairly simple. Let me know.

(Edited by Kevan at 12:43 am on April 30, 2001)
 
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