Does anybody with RGs get this tone? - Jemsite
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post #1 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-13-2015, 11:57 AM Thread Starter
 
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Does anybody with RGs get this tone?

I know with all the RGs out there with dual full sized humbuckers, there must be an RG with this "Peter Green" tone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQXw9Ir5Iwc

I don't know if an HH set could sound this way with a phase reversal switch or push/pull pot turning a pickup(s) into out of phase, or if it truly includes a more serious mod. (like actually physically twirling the magnet under the neck humbucker which will make it only get this tone but not the regular tone anymore, so that's out though I considered it).

Basically many in the Gibson world consider this Peter Green in between tone as close as one can get to a Fender-ish sound without actually putting in single coils ala Les Paul Studio MIII with actual single coil in middle position and 5 way switch.

Yes, I know you can get a great HSH RG and get this and other tones all day long, but I was just wondering if you get this tone on HH Ibanez RG stock or with simple mod. Some have tried the out of phase on Gibson scale instrument, but then can't get the quack quite right and claim that it needs the longer and stiffer scale of a Fender 25.5" inch scale neck, thus thought of doing this on RG. I know with a little amp tweaking I can get the Gibson sound on just about any scale neck as long as there's a humbucker so longer Fender scale doesn't deter me.

Thanks in advance.

Last edited by 63Blazer; 01-13-2015 at 12:16 PM.
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post #2 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-13-2015, 01:01 PM
 
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Re: Does anybody with RGs get this tone?

I believe is just an out of phase mod poor the neck pick up right? i don't know how hard would be to mod it but i think it could work on a JS, it already has coil tapping (or is it splitting?) and the treble bleed, my guess would be that you'd have to sacrifice one of these features to get the new mod.

As a side note i hear the new 2015 LP standard comes with an out of phase mod from factory.
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post #3 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-13-2015, 01:11 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Does anybody with RGs get this tone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafafas View Post
I believe is just an out of phase mod poor the neck pick up right? i don't know how hard would be to mod it but i think it could work on a JS, it already has coil tapping (or is it splitting?) and the treble bleed, my guess would be that you'd have to sacrifice one of these features to get the new mod.

As a side note i hear the new 2015 LP standard comes with an out of phase mod from factory.
You can get that mod by either out phasing the neck or the treble humbucker pickup, but I am not sure if it sounds that way if both are out of phase.

I have a dual pickup ESP HH setup that I have coil split and I get even more of a Fenderish tone which is great but I have decided I don't like the hum. But better yet I can buy a new RG with longer Fender scale, with stock HH and figure out a mod from there.

I think I will have the neck pup set up with phase/out of phase with push pull pot with either volume or tone knob and I think I should get this sound but I am not quite sure if this is what I get.

What I like about this out of phase with two humbuckers is that it still gets the Fenderish quack but doesn't hum. Coil splitting seems to hum too much for my tastes.

Also Gary Moore, who was the last to own the famous Peter Green Les Paul, got such a good Fender like sound with this setup but some uber fans claim that Moore got that tone more often with another guitar he had with a humbucker and a P-90 wired normally together. I don't quite know what you will get with humbucker and single coil P-90 but I assume it will be thinner and more quackish (good) than just two humbuckers with regular wiring.

If the tone I am missing is that, then all I have to do is get any HH guitar and put a Seymour Duncan Phat Cat (P-90 made to fit humbucker space) and call it a day.

I do know that the Chris Miller signature Ibanez with Core Tone humbucker and P-90 in neck is set up with the two pickups wired normally.
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post #4 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-13-2015, 01:45 PM
 
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Re: Does anybody with RGs get this tone?

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Originally Posted by 63Blazer View Post
You can get that mod by either out phasing the neck or the treble humbucker pickup, but I am not sure if it sounds that way if both are out of phase.
No, both cannot be out of phase that would make them to be in phase, the mod is for one pup to be out of phase in relation to the other pup, the idea is that when both PUs are selected since one is out of phase with the other it will cancel most of the frequencies and give a very distinct sound, my guess would be that besides the mod one thing to consider would be the differences between both pups to get a good sound, if they are too similar the sound could be too thin.

I'm no expert here but i wonder if this mod could lead to ground issues, when you reverse de PU everything that was connected to the lead is now going to the ground.
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post #5 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-13-2015, 02:01 PM Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafafas View Post
No, both cannot be out of phase that would make them to be in phase, the mod is for one pup to be out of phase in relation to the other pup, the idea is that when both PUs are selected since one is out of phase with the other it will cancel most of the frequencies and give a very distinct sound, my guess would be that besides the mod one thing to consider would be the differences between both pups to get a good sound, if they are too similar the sound could be too thin.

I'm no expert here but i wonder if this mod could lead to ground issues, when you reverse de PU everything that was connected to the lead is now going to the ground.
Thanks for the info.

I will put the neck pup out of phase.

I don't know if this messes up the grounding or if grounding has anything to do with it.

I know if it does, then I wonder if twirling the

Last edited by 63Blazer; 01-13-2015 at 02:10 PM.
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post #6 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-13-2015, 02:26 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Does anybody with RGs get this tone?

I also found a much more involved mod (that guitar techies do) that gets the sound and maybe it's still best to get a whole set and put into an HH guitar.

I think the volume pots, capacitors, tone pots, and how it all meshes with pickups are key, too thus negating what any basement project level workmanship I would put on it:

http://mrfabulous.com.au/supernatural%20pickups
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post #7 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-13-2015, 05:08 PM
 
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Re: Does anybody with RGs get this tone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 63Blazer View Post
I also found a much more involved mod (that guitar techies do) that gets the sound and maybe it's still best to get a whole set and put into an HH guitar.

I think the volume pots, capacitors, tone pots, and how it all meshes with pickups are key, too thus negating what any basement project level workmanship I would put on it:

http://mrfabulous.com.au/supernatural%20pickups
Cool man, please post your results if you decide to do the mod, i too like the peter green tone but never thought of getting in it with an RG (or JS)
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post #8 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-14-2015, 09:16 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Does anybody with RGs get this tone?

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Originally Posted by Rafafas View Post
Cool man, please post your results if you decide to do the mod, i too like the peter green tone but never thought of getting in it with an RG (or JS)
I will post a youtube and PM you if I do the Peter Green mod. Right now on my ESP I have a simple push pull to single coil thing which I put in which I don't want due to the excessive single coil hum. Clean it's OK but with gain it's hard to take thus my preference towards humbuckers when there's distortion. The PG mod is the only way I know to get two humbuckers to get both the Gibson and Fender type tones without hum when distorted.

I want to find a simple non-trem RG with that 25.5" inch scale I desire. If I go the cheap route, I can twirl magnet which will seem to get that Peter Green sound when all pots are at 10 and selector switch is in the middle position. That extra scale length should get closer to a Fender sound than the short Gibson scale (24.6-24.75").

So I now know if I want to get that Peter Green sound and have it be useable and more controllable through more volume settings, thus adding a much more versatile guitar, then I have to get the two pickups and properly matched pots and capacitors. It's almost like a custom wired 5 way switch in terms of useable tones from that guy's website.

I don't know if I will try a PG type mod with the simple magnet twirl or full new setup like on the mr. fabulous website from Australia first on my Gibson scale guitar first but I know I won't get the same Fender like attack on a shorter Gibson scale guitar. It's truly amazing just how much scale length can affect overall guitar tone with all other things being equal.

All that being said an HSH RG setup with the single coil pickup swapped out with a stacked single coil will give all the Gibson and Fender tones close enough without hum. Of course no stacked single coil will sound exactly like a vintage single coil Fender pickup because the modern stacked single coils are a little smoother and less percussive. The Gibson sound won't be the same as a Les Paul because the RG's humbuckers aren't as dark but fooling with tone knob can dial that in almost exactly.

There's really no one guitar setup that can get all the old school Gibson and Fender tones exactly, but the HSH setup on many RGs is about the closest one can get without having to spend a lot of money and get the expensive rackmount, software driven gear some here use.

I did try a $2,500 dollar rack mount unit (maybe more) that could take any basic electric guitar signal and swap it out flawlessly with a sampled sound so my strat could become an ES-175 exactly or a Takamine 12 string. If money was no object this is what I would do. The software becomes increasingly better so that the tiny nuances of let's say that 12 string Takamine is almost undetectable from the real thing while standing in front of the speakers. Crazy.

Last edited by 63Blazer; 01-14-2015 at 09:57 AM.
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post #9 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-14-2015, 11:35 AM
 
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Re: Does anybody with RGs get this tone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 63Blazer View Post

There's really no one guitar setup that can get all the old school Gibson and Fender tones exactly, but the HSH setup on many RGs is about the closest one can get without having to spend a lot of money and get the expensive rackmount, software driven gear some here use.
Yeah this is true, even though I'm pretty used to the HH set up of my JSs and i can get a lot of tones with it (the treble bleed is super useful), The HSH configuration is incredibly versatile, a few months ago i fancied to play Vai's tender surrender on my JS, the way i do it is to set my tone for the distortion part and roll down the volume knob until i get fairly good clean sound, but i couldn't get quite get it with the JS, the it cleaned up quite well but just not as good as an HSH in the fifth position.
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post #10 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-14-2015, 12:05 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Does anybody with RGs get this tone?

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Originally Posted by Rafafas View Post
Yeah this is true, even though I'm pretty used to the HH set up of my JSs and i can get a lot of tones with it (the treble bleed is super useful), The HSH configuration is incredibly versatile, a few months ago i fancied to play Vai's tender surrender on my JS, the way i do it is to set my tone for the distortion part and roll down the volume knob until i get fairly good clean sound, but i couldn't get quite get it with the JS, the it cleaned up quite well but just not as good as an HSH in the fifth position.
I heard of the treble bleed knob and I am not sure exactly what it does on the HH setup but I know it's a JS thing.

I wonder if you could get a treble bleed pot or module (or whatever it is) that is basically the same thing.

I know the fatness/dullness achieved by turning down the volume knob is not always a good thing when using one pickup. When using two pickups, the dullness of one changes the overall character in a good way and the sound seems to go in and out of phase according to where the volume is.

With the PG sound with all the matching components I don't know if treble bleed would negate all the useable tones that the setup has. All that muddiness when turning down works like a cool mixing board when the PG setup is employed with both pickups on.

I rarely fool with any knobs when playing live but it's the fastest way to change sound other than stomping on pedals. The hard thing is to know that if you like the sound on stage when fooling with knobs on guitar, that it will also sound good in the audience. Even the best guitarists have no control over how things sound in the audience because the sweet spot of a band is usually several feet away. But then go too far away, like outside the venue, then a lot of the music (especially vocals) will sound flat. Lead guitar solos can sound flat, too but then you go back inside and then it's all in tune again. I don't know if that's the effect of different instruments, different amps, the PA, and the windows and walls of almost any venue. I used to pass on bands that sounded out of tune when I walked by a club until I realized that the real sound can't be measured until one is in the club.

There's just so much more control when recording, especially with digital technology, over what things sound like live.

Last edited by 63Blazer; 01-14-2015 at 12:17 PM.
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post #11 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-14-2015, 12:15 PM
 
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Re: Does anybody with RGs get this tone?

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Originally Posted by 63Blazer View Post
I heard of the treble bleed knob and I am not sure exactly what it does on the HH setup but I know it's a JS thing.

I wonder if you could get a treble bleed pot or module (or whatever it is) that is basically the same thing.
Lots of info on the internet about it, but this explains what it does and how:

http://rowbinet.co.uk/2011/10/02/gui...le-bleed-mods/

Plan on trying it with my eternal project guitar when I get the new pickguard.
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post #12 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-14-2015, 12:28 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Does anybody with RGs get this tone?

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Originally Posted by FireEagle View Post
Lots of info on the internet about it, but this explains what it does and how:

http://rowbinet.co.uk/2011/10/02/gui...le-bleed-mods/

Plan on trying it with my eternal project guitar when I get the new pickguard.
That's a really great and comprehensive web page. I do like how it said some guitarists use the regular non-modded volume knob to great effect and I think this would include the PG setup with all matching parts. When turning down the volume knob on the neck pickup (if that's the one that is modded), then there's this whoo-whee swirling effect when you go from 10 to 9, 9 to 8, 8 to 7, etc. because it's a regular volume pot.

I would suspect this phase reversal sounding feature would be diminished if volume knob simply kept it's full treble features steadily while going down in volume. The "whoo" part of the regular volume knob, in the whoo-whee sound while going down, is something that sounds like the pickup is getting bassier when turned down, but then trebly while going down further, and then bassier again. It's inconsistent of course but that's how it seems to work with regular volume pots. Maybe this is all just bad parts or stock parts, but treble bleed seems to be a good thing worth trying out.

I may email that Aussie site with full PG mod and ask if they have a treble bleed on their matched pots. I don't use tone knobs so on HH guitar with two knobs I will rewire it for one knob to employ the lead pickup and the other to employ the neck pickup.

http://mrfabulous.com.au/supernatural%20pickups
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post #13 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-14-2015, 12:58 PM
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Re: Does anybody with RGs get this tone?

^^^ a site dedicated to wiring mods is this one : http://guitarnuts2.proboards.com/
Feel free to join and ask questions. Post the question, post the peter green sound video and you are (most likely) set. Those guys are *the* authority when it comes to traditional (analog - vintage) or not so traditional wiring mods.
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post #14 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-14-2015, 01:13 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Does anybody with RGs get this tone?

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Originally Posted by panix View Post
^^^ a site dedicated to wiring mods is this one : http://guitarnuts2.proboards.com/
Feel free to join and ask questions. Post the question, post the peter green sound video and you are (most likely) set. Those guys are *the* authority when it comes to traditional (analog - vintage) or not so traditional wiring mods.
Totally cool. I will check this one out.

I know PG played his backwards wired (neck humbucker) Les Paul but also played a couple of different strats which I see him with much more in later career, and sometimes it's hard to tell just which guitar he is using. The guy could totally make the #2 and #4 settings so cool on a strat on lead and still cut through the mix.
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