help me....laquer problems - Jemsite
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post #1 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-29-2006, 07:02 AM Thread Starter
 
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help me....laquer problems

ive been modding an old ibanez gio , so far i've sanded it down, white primered it, then given it several coats of chrome paint! but now im wondering what the best way of glossing it is. I want to have a durable finish. so far i've got some clear laquer (designed for a car) but don't know if i should use it or not? as it says i have to rub down the finish first?
any help would be cool
:-)
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post #2 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-29-2006, 08:43 AM
 
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Re: help me....laquer problems

Here is a site I have used that may help you understand some of the principles of the painting process. I hope this helps. Good luck with the painting.

http://reranch.com/
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post #3 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-29-2006, 08:41 PM
 
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Re: help me....laquer problems

You couldn't pay me to put a Laquer paint job on a guitar. If you want the shinyest paint that is by far the most durable then you need to use Urethane. Laquer is crap, its thin, it doesn't build, it never cures, and it is the least durable paint made. I mean spray paint is laquer, so do the math. Go Urethane.
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post #4 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-30-2006, 08:30 AM
 
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Re: help me....laquer problems

Polyurethane is favoured. I believe thats what Ibanez uses.
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post #5 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-30-2006, 09:44 AM
 
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Re: help me....laquer problems

Laquer does cure.
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post #6 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-30-2006, 12:21 PM
 
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Re: help me....laquer problems

LOL Laquer is crap? Only the best guitars get real laquer. The cheap ones get Urethane.
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post #7 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-31-2006, 06:49 AM
 
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Re: help me....laquer problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ant1981
Laquer does cure.
Ummm, sorry, it doesn't. Lacquer will NEVER cure. It will dry yes, but cure no. There is a difference between dry and cured. The reason lacquer will never cure is b/c it air dries, rather then drying chemically like a clear that uses a catalyst, such as polyurethane, urethane, polyester, etc....Some peoply say Laquer "Air Cures" which is wrong, the correct terminology is "Air Dries"

Something that is cured can NEVER be reflowed, or wetted and its solvent resistant. What I mean is this, for example, if you take an object that has been clear coated with some sort of clear that has been catalyzed with a hardener then once all the chemical interlocking has been completed then there is nothing you can do to re-wet it, or re-flow it.

However take Lacquer on the other hand, it air dries, and has no catalyst or hardeners mixed in. Therefore once it dries it can ALWAYS be re-wetted by adding heat or a solvent. Take a hair drier and buzz over a guitar that has been painted with lacquer for a few minutes and you'll see that it will start getting soft, then it will actually make a wet shiny spot in the paint, and if you touch the area it will be wet paint. Doesn't matter if the guitar has been painted for a month or 50 years, lacquer will NEVER cure b/c it has no way to. This is also why lacquer can be wiped off with lacquer thinner, b/c it has no way to ever harden. Take Urethane for example, once its cured lacquer thinner will not even faze it, b/c it is chemically locked, or cured, and cannot be reflowed or re-wetted. Also, Heat will NOT reflow or rewet Urethane (or any other catalyzed Top Coat), as a matter of fact, the hotter you get a catalyzed clear the HARDER it will get. This is why the Automotive factories "Bake" their clear, b/c it makes it A) Harder, and B) Dry faster. Catalyzed clear will cure at any temperature above 55 degrees, however for every 15 degrees you go above 68 you cut the curing time in half.

For example, if a clear takes 6-8 hours to cure at 68, then take it up to 83 degrees and your looking at 3-4, take the temp up to 98 and your looking at 1.5-2 hrs, etc.....

So, I hate to bust your bubble, but Lacquer DOES NOT cure. This is also why people who do relic paint jobs choose an air drying clear such as lacquer, and nitrocellulose, b/c when subjected to cold temperatures, then hot temperatures it cracks. Now imagine if your car did that, got cold at night, then cracked in the middle of the day when the sun got the temperature of that metal up to 150 degrees. It doesn't crack b/c its CURED.

The definition of "Cure" as found on PPG's website is.....

Cure- The chemical reaction of a coating during the drying process, leaving it insoluble.

And Catalyst-

Catalyst: Sometimes referred to as activators or hardners, catalysts contain chemicals that interact with the resins of the paint allowing it to cure. Substance whose presence increases the rate of a chemical reaction, e.g., acid catalyst added to an epoxy resin system to accelerate drying time.

Lacquer: A fast-drying usually clear coating that is highly flammable and dries by solvent evaporation only. Can be reconstituted after drying by adding solvent. Poor durability and chemical resistance are the downside.

Lacquer has no Catalyst, therefore it does NOT have the chemical reactions a paint must have in order to CURE. If you ever here ANYONE say lacquer cures they are misinformed, and misusing the word "Cure", and rather should correctly be saying "Dry" when referring to lacquer.

If you take a car that has been painted in lacquer, but it SEVERELY faded, you can make it look like a BRAND NEW paint job by simply pulling it into a paint booth, turning the heat up to about 150 degrees, it will re-wet and re-flow the paint and in 45 mins you'll have a brand new looking paint job (Minus the chips and scratches) it will be as shiny as the day it was painted, b/c the heat reflows it, b/c it isn't cured, it can't cure, it has NO WAY TO CURE, it is AIR DRIED, its no different really than spray paint, b/c spray paint IS LACQUER.

The guy who started this post asked what the most durable paint is, and catalyzed clears are BY FAR Harder, stronger, and FAR more durable than lacquer, or any other Non-Catalized clear, PERIOD.

And as far as the guy who said Urethane is only used on Cheap guitars, then you are also misinformed. Not only is Gibson now using Urethane (B/c its more durable) but PRS has been using Urethane for over 5 years ( I know this b/c I got a video with my PRS that shows how they are built and painted, and they clearly say in the video TWICE that they use URETHANE PAINT), as well as Warrior, Carvin, Fernandes, ESP, Jackson, and about 50 other guitar manufacturers. I know for a fact Gibson has started using it b/c I have a friend who paints at their Nashville Factory. Last time I checked Gibson, PRS, Warrior, and Carvin were NOT CHEAP GUITAR COMPANIES.

Ant, your talking to the wrong person about paint, I was a chemist and painting instructor for PPG Industries for over 10 years. No offense, but if you think lacquer cures you need to check again, you are wrong. Lacquer "Hardens" to some degree, and "Dries" but does not by definition "Cure" This is why Lacquer is a VERY VERY thin clear, Undurable, VERY subseptable to fading, and VERY easy to chip or scratch b/c it doesn't have a hardner (Catalyst) mixed in with it.

If this guy wants the Shiniest, Most Fade Resistant and DURABLE long lasting paint out there then a Catalyzed Clear is what he wants.

Last edited by PatrickSimsCustomShopUSA; 05-31-2006 at 07:50 AM.
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post #8 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-31-2006, 06:59 AM
 
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Re: help me....laquer problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rotti
LOL Laquer is crap? Only the best guitars get real laquer. The cheap ones get Urethane.
Hahaha, So I guess Ibanez, PRS, Carvin, Warrior, Fernandes, ESP, Brian Moore, and Tom Anderson are all cheap guitars! Haha, dude you really have no clue what your talking about. All those guitar manufactures use Urethane & Polyurethane, and almost every Single one of them have guitars that are over $2000

Did I also mention that Gibson is now using Urethane on many of their new guitars. Wonder why? I have a friend who works at the Gibson Factory in Nashville and he says they have been doing a ton of guitars and alot of their les pauls for the last 2 years in Urethane. Hmm, well I guess Gibsons are cheap guitars now.

Last edited by PatrickSimsCustomShopUSA; 05-31-2006 at 07:51 AM.
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post #9 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-31-2006, 08:17 AM
 
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Re: help me....laquer problems

Quote:
Did I also mention that Gibson is now using Urethane on many of their new guitars. Wonder why?
Because it's quicker and cheaper.

Quote:
Haha, dude you really have no clue what your talking about.
It's a fact, cheap guitars are poly. Many expensive ones have gone this route but as a cost cutting measure. I don't know why I'm even telling you this because you already know it. I think your just posting to try and cause trouble.

You know as well as I that traditionaly high end guitars are lacquered and many very high end custom guitars are still done that way. The highest end Fenders for example get nitro and the cheapest ones get poly. I'm not trying to debate which is better for guitars.
Everyone knows poly is more durable and many people think lacquer looks and sounds better. People who are "into" guitar finishing will even buy a guitar with a perfectly good poly finish and stip it off to apply lacquer.
Quote:
Laquer is crap?
I don't think so. It has always been the top guitar finish and it will probably always be the #1 choice of high end custom guitar finishes. As with companies like PRS and Gibson, well of course a finish with a catalist is quicker and easier to use. Guitar companies that mass produce will go that route, but when they come out with an ultra high end limited edition guitar it will probably be lacquer.
But thanks for the education on the words "cure" vs "dry". It was very interesting.

I apologize to the original poster of this thread. Laquer is of course a fine guitar finish. If you want a thick coat of plastic on your guitar go for poly. It works too.

Last edited by Rotti; 05-31-2006 at 08:52 AM.
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post #10 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-31-2006, 10:01 AM
 
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Re: help me....laquer problems

Holy Crap Batman! (Chill gents)

SCS That was an awesome and very informative post.
Where is the best place to go to get Urethane?
I don't want to hijack your thread ProjectJem, this may be handy for you too.

Wolfram.
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post #11 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-31-2006, 10:49 AM
 
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Re: help me....laquer problems

SCS is right on the money. I've seen old Les Pauls with dents and necks that were fixed because the lacquer could be melted/molded and replaced without refinishing the entire guitar.

Lacquer is used on higher end guitars because it doesn't inhibit the tone of the guitar's as much as say a poly based clearcoat.
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post #12 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-31-2006, 10:49 AM
 
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Re: help me....laquer problems

Is Gibson using Urethane on all models now?

That's fantastic. I have 2 cellulose finished Les Pauls that I'm reluctant to play very often because the finishes are so fragile, particually on the ebony one - I've always said the only thing that has prevented me from acumulating a load of Gibson's are the finishes.
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post #13 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-31-2006, 11:17 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: help me....laquer problems

yer im not too bothered about all this, considering the guitar is a bag of ****e!
just testing my painting skills, im leaving it to dry at the mo, instead of laquer i used an acrylic gloss, which i hope will work, failing that i might try and paint it with one of those texture paints or maybe glow in the dark!!!
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post #14 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-31-2006, 11:39 AM
 
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Re: help me....laquer problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by projectjem
yer im not too bothered about all this, considering the guitar is a bag of ****e!
just testing my painting skills, im leaving it to dry at the mo, instead of laquer i used an acrylic gloss, which i hope will work, failing that i might try and paint it with one of those texture paints or maybe glow in the dark!!!
If you're messing with something that has a trem, get a glow in the dark wammy bar. Try ordering a very large hologram to glue onto it and then clear coat over it. Im sure that would be neat to a degree.
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post #15 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-31-2006, 12:42 PM
 
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Re: help me....laquer problems

I tried painting a guitar last summer with the instructions in the e-book that's available on the subject... Needless to say the partially painted body still hangs in my garage. It was fun at the time though...
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