How can a 25.5" Jem feel looser than a 25.0" PRS? - Jemsite
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post #1 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-28-2015, 12:43 PM Thread Starter
 
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How can a 25.5" Jem feel looser than a 25.0" PRS?

I'm totally confused, questioning my own sanity here.

Currently I have in front of me a Jem 7VWH and a PRS Custom 24 with the PRS tremolo. Scale lengths: Jem is 25.5", PRS is 25.0". Same string gauge & brand, same setup (I did both), both tuned to EADGBE, intonation correct.

The physics say that the PRS, having a shorter scale, should have the strings with less tension in order to compensate the shorter string length. PRS should have looser strings, period. However, playing one after another, they seem to have the same string tension under my fingers... sometimes I have the impression that the Jem is easier to bend!

Can someone give me any theory about this phenomenon??

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post #2 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-28-2015, 01:22 PM
 
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Re: How can a 25.5" Jem feel looser than a 25.0" PRS?

If they both had fixed bridges the PRS would be easier to bend.

What you're feeling is due to the trems.
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post #3 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-28-2015, 01:24 PM
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Re: How can a 25.5" Jem feel looser than a 25.0" PRS?

floating trem on the Ibanez, non floating on the PRS.
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post #4 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-28-2015, 01:27 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: How can a 25.5" Jem feel looser than a 25.0" PRS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilch View Post
If they both had fixed bridges the PRS would be easier to bend.
What you're feeling is due to the trems.
I suspect it's a trem issue... but what?


Quote:
Originally Posted by panix View Post
floating trem on the Ibanez, non floating on the PRS.
The PRS trem is set to float.

Last edited by Rachmaninoff; 02-28-2015 at 01:32 PM. Reason: 2nd answer
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post #5 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-28-2015, 01:46 PM
 
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Re: How can a 25.5" Jem feel looser than a 25.0" PRS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachmaninoff View Post
I suspect it's a trem issue... but what?
The design of the trem. It's not an "issue" really, just a result of the design of the different trems.

e.g. The edge has pivots on two knife edges, whereas the PRS (even though it's floating) has 6 screws to pivot on.

Last edited by wilch; 03-01-2015 at 01:01 AM.
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post #6 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-28-2015, 01:58 PM
 
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Re: How can a 25.5" Jem feel looser than a 25.0" PRS?

Fret size, wood type, neck bow, width and profile also have its influence, along with the trem design and spring tension.
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post #7 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-28-2015, 03:21 PM
 
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Re: How can a 25.5" Jem feel looser than a 25.0" PRS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachmaninoff View Post
............

The physics say that the PRS, having a shorter scale, should have the strings with less tension in order to compensate the shorter string length. PRS should have looser strings, period. However, playing one after another, they seem to have the same string tension under my fingers... sometimes I have the impression that the Jem is easier to bend!

Can someone give me any theory about this phenomenon??
1. When you lock nut, you can cut off guitar head. So length of the string after locked nut, doesn't mater, same thing on the bridge, Jem's bridge has less string in itself, so in locked Jem you have to measure string length from nut to bridge, and in PRS from post to string ball,

2. Stiffness off springs can be different even in same type of guitars, so one Jem could be much stiffer then other, my LoPro Edge is much stiffer then my Edge Pro so I asume thet even shape of bridge can make difference.

3. angle of tremolo, ( if tremolo is slightly up, strings would have less tension,)

4. Higher action means higher tension.
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post #8 of 20 (permalink) Old 02-28-2015, 03:58 PM
 
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Re: How can a 25.5" Jem feel looser than a 25.0" PRS?

None of the stuff that was mentioned really matters. What matters is break angle over the bridge saddles. Google it. That's why some folks like top loading bridges. Less break angle = looser feel. See http://www.frudua.com/guitar_strings_tension.htm for a write-up.
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post #9 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-01-2015, 12:15 AM
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Re: How can a 25.5" Jem feel looser than a 25.0" PRS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomibanez View Post
None of the stuff that was mentioned really matters. What matters is break angle over the bridge saddles. Google it. That's why some folks like top loading bridges. Less break angle = looser feel. See http://www.frudua.com/guitar_strings_tension.htm for a write-up.
This would be argument for the opposite case, since in the jem there are simply no non-vibrating parts of the string, neither on nut side (locking), nor on bridge side (locking). So by frudua's theory (which is btw correct), the Jem should be stiffer than the PRS.
As mentioned, spring flexibility, type, material, length, number of them, could be a factor, angle could be a factor.
Something that was not mentioned, is that a standard vintage strat trem, 6-screw type, will still put more friction on the movement than a trem which was designed for full floating playing trem virtuosos.
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post #10 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-01-2015, 01:06 AM
 
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Re: How can a 25.5" Jem feel looser than a 25.0" PRS?

I get this feeling on some guitars. It is because they aren't set up right. Have the PRS professionally set up.

The combination of straightening out the neck by adjusting the truss rod, setting saddle height, adjusting intonation and setting your trem's angle/tension should fix all this.
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post #11 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-01-2015, 01:10 AM
 
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Re: How can a 25.5" Jem feel looser than a 25.0" PRS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by panix View Post
Something that was not mentioned, is that a standard vintage strat trem, 6-screw type, will still put more friction on the movement than a trem which was designed for full floating playing trem virtuosos.
I mentioned this earlier.

Grab a string, bend the note up a few semitones and watch the Edge trem tilt forward significantly, and easily.

Do the same on the PRS and the trem probably won't move as much.
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post #12 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-01-2015, 01:30 AM
 
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Re: How can a 25.5" Jem feel looser than a 25.0" PRS?

By all of your logic any fixed bridge should feel more stiff than any guitar with a trem on it. This isn't the case.
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post #13 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-01-2015, 01:43 AM
 
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Re: How can a 25.5" Jem feel looser than a 25.0" PRS?

I'm talking specifically about this case. The OP mentioned he has a 25" scale length feeling like it has more tension than a guitar with 25.5" scale length.

I know for a fact that my fixed bridge RG has more tension than my lo-pro edge RG and my Jem. All have a 25.5" scale length, all are basswood with maple and rosewood neck/fretboard.

What's the difference in that scenario? The trem.

What's the difference in the scenario mentioned by the OP? The scale length and the trem, with the caveat that the guitar in this scenario with shorter scale length feels like it has more tension.

Seems logical to me. *shrugs*
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post #14 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-01-2015, 01:43 AM
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Re: How can a 25.5" Jem feel looser than a 25.0" PRS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilch View Post
I mentioned this earlier.
true, lets say I added some words to your previous thought.
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post #15 of 20 (permalink) Old 03-01-2015, 08:55 AM
 
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Re: How can a 25.5" Jem feel looser than a 25.0" PRS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomibanez View Post
None of the stuff that was mentioned really matters. What matters is break angle over the bridge saddles. Google it. That's why some folks like top loading bridges. Less break angle = looser feel. See http://www.frudua.com/guitar_strings_tension.htm for a write-up.
I believe that this can only apply to fixed bridge, non-locking systems. You can consider the portions of the strings past the nut and saddles to be springs. A greater break angle translates to attaching stiffer "springs" to either end of the main portion of the string. So in the case of the PRS, this would only affect the nut end of the guitar. That said, any string angle at the headstock should be less stiff than a locking nut, which is effectively like attaching the string to a wall.

As far as floating trems, the only explanation that holds any water scientifically is that the geometries of the two trems are very different. We're talking about torque, or force times distance. In any floating trem, the tension in the strings is balanced by the tension in the springs.

In any example, the tension in the string is a constant at a given pitch and scale length. But in order to calculate the force required in the springs, you'd need to know where the center point is that the trem is rotating around and then know the distances to both the saddle as well as the spring attachment point. Depending on what those distances are, the PRS might have more spring tension despite having a shorter scale length, since scale length is only one of the variables.

In two different trem systems, the result of bending a string will result in two different force curves, which we interpret as different feels.
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