Installing an ibanez backstop - Jemsite
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post #1 of 39 (permalink) Old 04-14-2004, 11:24 AM Thread Starter
 
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Installing an ibanez backstop

I bought an ibanez backstop off a guy here at jemsite for a very reasonable price. Although i haven't received it yet, I'm already confused LOL

I notice from the pictures of the backstop that it has a rubber piece that attaches onto the bridge, and that it has 2 screws that come with it. Unfortunately, I've been told that the rubber piece that goes onto the bridge doesn't have any 'sticky' left. Does any one have any advice on how best to sticky it up?

Of course, I want to be able to remove it if neccessary, so i don't want to use crazy glue or anything...



Other questions...

1) I don't know what the screws are for (perhaps because i've never seen one of these in person). will i need to drill, route, or modify my guitar in any way to put this puppy in? I can't really see how this unit is supposed to stay in place unless i drill its baseplate into the guitar body.

2) Will i need to remove my bridge from its cavity to do this mod?

If you can give me any tips or info on how to install or even on how to setup the unit, please do.

I've already seen the 2 pages of instructional information on jemsite by the way, just looking for a bit more.
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post #2 of 39 (permalink) Old 04-14-2004, 12:12 PM
 
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no need to route anything on your guitar body, you just have to drill two little holes for the mounting screws. you have to pull out the center trem-spring to fasten the backstop in place.
you can use double-tape to paste the rubber pad on the trem-block.

to set it up, you just have to know what string(s) you break more often.
this is how i set my Backstops:

1.
tune to perfect pitch.

2.
slacken the string(s) that break up more often.

3.
by turning the Backstop' knobs, you want the pistons to push against the trem-block, then go further until you reach the trem-angle in line with the top, and consequently, the tuning.

4.
re-tune the slacken string(s). you'll have to tight the trem-springs a bit more to compensate and reach the balance between strings, trem-springs and Backstop springs.

5.
fine tune.


once you get used, it's a joke. good luck
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post #3 of 39 (permalink) Old 04-14-2004, 12:53 PM Thread Starter
 
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hi nuno,

I follow you until this point "3) by turning the Backstop' knobs, you want the pistons to push against the trem-block, then go further until you reach the trem-angle in line with the top, and consequently, the tuning. "

Do you mean keep lengthening the pistons of the backstop device until the backstop pushes the bridge back to its normal angle (which was altered when you slacked the strings)?

ALSO -

For step 5, you said "re-tune the slacken string(s). you'll have to tight the trem-springs a bit more to compensate and reach the balance between strings, trem-springs and Backstop springs."

Are you talking about tightening the screws that hold the spring claws to the body of the guitar (the screws that help you raise or lower your bridge)?

Is so, I guess ultimately what your saying (in order) is that i need to slack the neccessary strings (which will lower the angle of the bridge), extend the backstop pistons out (which as a result will make the bridge go back up a bit) and then bring the angle of the bridge back to the perfect position by adjusting the spring claw screws.


It seems then that how 'firm' the backstop will be will depend in part by how far you extend its pistons onto the block of the bridge. If you push them farther into the bridge, it'll be tougher to pull up but give more trem stability, if you extend them less, it'll be a bit easier to pull up, but a bit of trem stability will be sacrificed.


I didn't realize that the backstop could focus in on the strings that you break more easily. So if i usually break the high E, B and G, then I should I ONLY slack those a bit while I'm installing, or is it beneficial to slack them all? What differences would it make if i slacked one or all of the strings?

Is that why you can operate the backstop using either one or two of its springs...to isolate the areas needed more?

I should state that my objective is exclusively to get more tuning stability when I do bends on strings, I'm not so much worried about keeping the guitar in tune when a string breaks....as far as I'm concerned, that's a non issue. I want it to feel as much like it did without the backstop installed as possible.

Would you recommend using only one of the springs on the backstop? I guess if i did that, it would mean i only extend ONE of the backstop's pistons to hit the tremblock?

Sorry for the zillion questions, you seem to know alot about this! Thanks for everything


[/b]
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post #4 of 39 (permalink) Old 04-15-2004, 04:34 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davester1234
Do you mean keep lengthening the pistons of the backstop device until the backstop pushes the bridge back to its normal angle?
exactly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by davester1234
Are you talking about tightening the screws that hold the spring claws to the body of the guitar?
exactly.

yes, the more you tight the Backstop springs, the more stiff your trem will feel. of course, how tight you set the Backstop depends on how many broken strings you set it for.
well, if you dont mind about broken strings, then you wont need to set it that tight, but anyway it has to be set tight enough to balance the trem pull when you bend the strings. in other words: you bend a string, the trem' tail raises, then you have to keep it in place, i.e. in line with the top of the guitar. to do that, you have to tight the trem-springs a bit. the Backstop will counter-balance the trem-springs bigger tension. i hope this is clear enough, sorry for my English.


Quote:
Originally Posted by davester1234
then I should I ONLY slack those a bit while I'm installing, or is it beneficial to slack them all?
yep, you have to slack only the strings you think they break more frequently. that's because you have to simulate the real situation, when you break one of those strings and the trem will stay parallel to the top. if you set it to prevent G, B and E broken strings, then you can break them all and your trem will keep the angle.


Quote:
Originally Posted by davester1234
Is that why you can operate the backstop using either one or two of its springs...to isolate the areas needed more?
honestly, i dont know. i think that they put two springs just to add some strenght to the Backstop.


Quote:
Originally Posted by davester1234
Would you recommend using only one of the springs on the backstop?
why not. you can try setting it with one pushing spring only, then if it's not enough, use both.


Quote:
Originally Posted by davester1234
Sorry for the zillion questions, you seem to know alot about this!
well, i dont know if my method is the right one, i just know it works for me.

ciao!
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post #5 of 39 (permalink) Old 04-15-2004, 07:10 AM
 
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i've used a backstop for years (and why ibanez quit making them is a mystery, considering they still cut the trem cavity for them)...

anyway, i wouldn't worry too much about slacking strings fine adjustment if you aren't worried about compensation for string breakage. from my experience in a radius and rg all you really have to do is fully extend the "pistons" and not worry about the rubber piece with which they contact on the bridge. it's almost as if it were designed to work without. other than perhaps having to tighten the claw screws a gnats a$$, you should be fine.

that's worked fine for me, i have reasonable tuning and it only stiffens the feel slightly, but the added sustain is well worth it.... yes, it's noticeable.

it's a 10 minute job, when you get it, you'll see it... don't fret

mike
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post #6 of 39 (permalink) Old 04-15-2004, 07:49 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheToneZone
and why ibanez quit making them is a mystery
i think they quit making it cause ppl and shops didnt know how to set it up, then they set it off since their first restringing. then Ibanez thought that quitting making an "useless" thing would saving lots of $$$.

anyway, i agree about not worrying about the rubber pad: for how the Backstop works, it seems it would work better without anything between pistons and trem-block. Mr.Nordegg doesnt use it, and that could be the reason why Mr.Vai can have his Edges fluttering like hell.

or maybe just because he is Mr.Vai...
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post #7 of 39 (permalink) Old 04-15-2004, 10:23 AM Thread Starter
 
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thanx nuno and tonezone! (by the way nuno, your english is excellent, its me whose dumb)

okay, if its going to add extra stiffness to regular playability (on top of just keeping strings in tune when you bend a note) I won't slack the strings before I install the backstop. Like I said, I want it to feel as normal as possible because i absolutely *need* to flutter the bridge for what I'm doing. And I'll leave the rubber off unless it makes funny noises and clunking sounds, in which case I'll put it on.

now, I think I will also only apply one spring's worth of pressure from the backstop...that should be all i need to keep it in tune for bends. Does this mean I extend ONE backstop piston onto the trem-block (instead of both of them), or do I still extend BOTH backstop pistons, and then fully loosen the tension on one of the two the backstop springs?



2 more questions: tonezone, you mentioned that you have to FULLY EXTEND the pistons..in the ibanez manual it says extend them just until they touch the trem block. As a matter of fact, the manuals give lengths for how long the pistons should be for different applications. What differences would that make if i extend them all the way?

You also said that I'd have tighten the claw screws a whole lot...again, is this just to return the bridge back to its regular angle after it gets altered by the new pressure forces?
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post #8 of 39 (permalink) Old 04-15-2004, 12:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davester1234
...I extend ONE backstop piston onto the trem-block or do I still extend BOTH backstop pistons, and then fully loosen the tension on one of the two the backstop springs?
i would use just one piston, while leaving the other one set off and a bit distant from the trem-block. this would help the trem floating more freely, i guess.

i dont know if you can ever achieve in-tune bendings while maintaining normal trem stiffness, since you have to tighten the trem-springs. but well, let's see what will happen...
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post #9 of 39 (permalink) Old 04-15-2004, 06:33 PM Thread Starter
 
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thanx again.

Any advice on where install the unit into the guitar? I'm mean, how far away from the trem-block should it be? I've never screwed something into my 7vwh, and i don't want to mess it up
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post #10 of 39 (permalink) Old 04-16-2004, 03:39 AM
 
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no fear, just two little holes needed right under the center spring. as for the distance, well, i dont know if there are precise measurements to follow. i'd mount it not too far from the trem-block, say, with the Backstop' baseplate almost flush to the point where the trem-block' hole starts.
Evo's pics may help you.
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post #11 of 39 (permalink) Old 04-16-2004, 04:32 AM
 
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sorry my friend, i never read the manual for these things. i wasn't even aware that there was one.

the best way i can describe it is to show you, and i apologize but i am unable to link to a pic. need be, drop me a line at [email protected] and i can shoot you some lame webcam pics.

pretty much fully extend the pistons and slide it in. mine lined up just perfect with the bridge leveled properly. i have no idea how it keeps it in tune during bends or any of that, but it's worked fine for me.

when you get the thing, you'll see how the unit fits up against the cavity routing. to my knowledge ibanez is still making all of their guitars to seat these properly.

btw, a gnats ass = small
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post #12 of 39 (permalink) Old 04-16-2004, 04:41 AM
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The extra spring tension required to counterbalance the Backstops spring tension [depending on how much you add] makes it harder to pull the bridge forward on bends thus keeping it more in tune. You can achieve the same thing by adding an extra $2 spring
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post #13 of 39 (permalink) Old 04-16-2004, 10:17 AM Thread Starter
 
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hey rich!

I actually had a fourth spring on my 777vbk for years, and it helped a TINY bit, but the bridge would still raise significantly everytime I did a bend, that's why I've decided that something needs to be done. The spring just wasn't cutting it. NOTE, since I play my 7vwh more and have the same exact problem (naturally), it'll get the mod for now.
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post #14 of 39 (permalink) Old 04-16-2004, 10:19 AM
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the backstop should be much more effective than a 4th string due to the counterpressure it provides... glen
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post #15 of 39 (permalink) Old 04-16-2004, 11:37 AM
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Sure but if all you need is to be in tune while bending then the tremsetter will do a better job because it has it's own middle position where it stays until you grab hold of the bar.

Dave, if you add enough tension on the springs (and backstop) as to hold the bridge down when bending you can forget about fluttering alltogether.

I have a sneaky suspicion that the only reason Mr Nordegg has installed one on EVO is because Steve loves to lift the guitar by the bar and the backstop provides enough counterpressure to hold the trem from poping out of the posts.

ilia
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base plate , claw screws , edge trem , guitar body , ibanez backstop , neck shim , pro edge , pro edge trem , pro edge tremolo , spring cavity , string breakage , trem arm , trem block , trem stability , whammy bars

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