Jem 90th Loose Stud Insert - Jemsite
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post #1 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-28-2015, 02:19 PM Thread Starter
 
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Jem 90th Loose Stud Insert

I've just discovered after a string change that the trem on my 90th was catching on the pick guard. After removing the trem for inspection, I noticed that the treble side stud insert was moving in the body causing the trem the move forward slightly and catch the pick guard.
Anyone ever had this happen to them and how did the go about fixing it?
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post #2 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-28-2015, 03:04 PM
 
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Re: Jem 90th Loose Stud Insert

This is fairly common on basswood Ibanez bodies.

Copied from Ibanez Rules- Tech section

Quote:
7. The trem post anchor [insert] has become loose. This is the most common problem I will run into on older guitars, primarily basswood of course. Most types of tuning problems will give predictable trem return. With loose inserts the return is erratic. The trem posts screw into a metal anchor that is press fit into the body wood. Over time this anchor can become loose, especially on guitars where the trem post set screws have not been tightened allowing play between the post and anchor, and especially on basswood which is a softer wood. Remove the trem and with the post set screws tight try to move the posts [in the headstock to tail direction and back] with the 4mm Allen in the top of the stud to see if there is any play. Keep your eyes on the anchor checking for any play. If they don't move use a junk stud, or put tape around the top of the stud, and try again using pliers. [I've had many you couldn't move with the Allen alone but pliers showed how loose they really were. If you don't have a junk stud take the stud out and use anything [4mm Allen wrench from the stud, a bolt with the right thread, etc] put it in the hole and push the anchor toward the head, and back toward the tail. Even a little play will cause tuning instability, the anchor must by stable. There is over 100 pounds of string tension that makes the anchors move, test using the same kind of force] If they are loose you will need to pull them out of the body. Make sure to cut the paint away from around the top of the anchor 1mm or you will tear the paint up with the anchor as it comes out. Grab the post (preferably using an old junk post to use just for this, or a bolt with the correct thread) with a pair of pliers and work it out of the body. [I use a cats paw [tool for pulling nails] with shims laid across the body to protect the finish] If the play is minor give the headstock side of the hole a superglue coating, then use accelerator to cure it instantly. Check the fit with the insert, if it's still loose give it another coat of superglue, repeat. If it's tight use a good quality wood glue dabbled around the inside lip of the hole press the anchor back into the body the same way you pulled it with pliers on the post. Let sit for at least 24 hours before reassembly. NOTE - do not make the fit too tight or you may crack the wood behind the anchor [between anchor and trem rout]. Basswood has very little resin and after 10-20 years if plenty dry and prone to cracking if you give it a reason. [Many lower line guitars do not have post anchors. Some screw right into a metal plate that is screwed to the body. You get what you pay for.]

You'll have to do the same thing if your anchor is tight, but spinning in it's hole. Sometimes a set screw can be so tight you'll bend an allen wrench trying to get it loose, and turning the post without loosening the set screw causes the anchor to just spin. The only way to free the post is to pull the anchor out so you can grip the anchor with pliers while wrenching out the post. Reinstall as above.

If a loose anchor is neglected long enough it can actually oblong the hole, sometimes to a great extent. You can actually see that the post is not at 90* to the body. If the oblong is under 1mm using the superglue and wood wood glue will fill it enough. Be careful not to use too much glue or when you press the post back in it will be forced in through the hole in the anchor's base. Use plenty, but not too much If the oblong is larger than 1mm you'll need to use a good non shrinking acetone based wood patch on the neck side of the hole. Pack it in, most at the top than in the middle of the hole, but not too much. While it's still wet [work fast, wood patch has a tendency to dry very fast] press the anchor back into the hole and seat it. Try to press it in at a perfect 90* angle to the body. When it's seated pull it straight back out keeping it at the same 90* angle. Let the patch cure for 24 hours and then reinstall the anchor using wood glue as described in the first paragraph. [Always check the bottom of the hole for excess wood patch that has been forced down there when "forming" the new hole. If there's too much it will prevent the anchor from fully seating. Use anything to scrape it out so the anchor can fully seat]
http://www.ibanezrules.com/tech/setu...ity.htm#GUITAR
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post #3 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-28-2015, 04:16 PM
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Re: Jem 90th Loose Stud Insert

I'd stick 2-3 thin toothpicks in there dipped in wood glue. Do this with the strings removed, stick the toothpicks in the front side, where the hole has developed. Let it cure for 24 hours and you are ready to go.
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post #4 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-28-2015, 06:07 PM
 
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Re: Jem 90th Loose Stud Insert

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Originally Posted by panix View Post
I'd stick 2-3 thin toothpicks in there dipped in wood glue. Do this with the strings removed, stick the toothpicks in the front side, where the hole has developed. Let it cure for 24 hours and you are ready to go.
You'd likely crack the body doing that...... follow Rich's tutorial.
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post #5 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-29-2015, 12:45 AM
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Re: Jem 90th Loose Stud Insert

what? crack the body? by inserting the pinpoints of 2-3 toothpicks by hand, and with the insert in place (not removed)? How on earth could that happen?
I have done this with my Carvin, the bridge saddles were almost pushing the pups ring. I am talking about 1mm clearance here. Not a problem ever since.

anyway it depends on the size of the developed clearance. If it is huge it will need something more drastic than just toothpicks : sawdust or even shaped wood dowels or even plug/redrill.
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post #6 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-29-2015, 02:51 AM
 
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Re: Jem 90th Loose Stud Insert

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Originally Posted by panix View Post
what? crack the body? by inserting the pinpoints of 2-3 toothpicks by hand, and with the insert in place (not removed)? How on earth could that happen?
I have done this with my Carvin, the bridge saddles were almost pushing the pups ring. I am talking about 1mm clearance here. Not a problem ever since.

anyway it depends on the size of the developed clearance. If it is huge it will need something more drastic than just toothpicks : sawdust or even shaped wood dowels or even plug/redrill.
Your Carvin is solid maple. No?
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post #7 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-29-2015, 03:35 AM
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Re: Jem 90th Loose Stud Insert

Neckthrough. The stud inserts go into the wings part. Still I cannot grasp how can someone crack the body by inserting by hand the end of a toothpick, unless wood glue tends to expand so much, which is smth I have not experienced.

Another option I did not try would be "wood-tite"?
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post #8 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-29-2015, 01:59 PM
 
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Re: Jem 90th Loose Stud Insert

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Originally Posted by panix View Post
Body IMHO affects the last frets mostly......

.....From my experience :
all maple neckthrough : extreme squeely harmonics, very very bright
Quote:
Originally Posted by panix View Post
I have a maple/maple/ebony guitar (Carvin dc135 my1998 )

My understanding is that your guitar is all maple with an ebony board.

Maple will NOT crack with the added wood being squeezed into a hole....Basswood will. How do I know? Because I've cracked one at the anchor bore.........experience.

........another thing. I can't possibly imagine how you could have ovaled an insert bore that is drilled into solid maple. Maybe if you were to strike the stud with a hammer from a side angle?

I'm not questioning your experiences, I'm AM saying that basswood will crack easily if the correct procedure isn't followed. Judging by Rich's well planned out procedure and my experience, I'm guessing that He's had a basswood body crack at some point in time as well.

Last edited by RGTFanatic; 03-29-2015 at 02:00 PM. Reason: spelling
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post #9 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-30-2015, 03:41 AM
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Re: Jem 90th Loose Stud Insert

aha, thanx,
About the carvin, in the ad back in 1988 it wrote all maple, i had a hard time cutting the lower wing bout, by converting it to right hand, so i guess the wings are maple as well. About the hammer metaphor, this one uses wood screws not inserts, i bought it second hand, sometime back in 1997-1999, IIRC

My question still stands tho : how did you manage to crack your basswood? Obviously "something" must fill the ovaled space, not? What if just super glue and wood glue are not enough?
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post #10 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-30-2015, 08:42 AM
 
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Re: Jem 90th Loose Stud Insert

I did it doweling and drilling two anchor bores on an old RG570. The bores for the inserts are 27/64th's. You can't get dowels in that size here so I got 7/16th's poplar dowels. 7/16th's is only 1/64th larger than the correct size. I figured I was ok. I glued it, pounded it in, and let it set over night. The next day the crack was there from the trem cavity through the anchor bore and into pickup route.

I also had another cracked body that I suspect was my fault. It's one I was working on for a friend of ours. I put a maple block in it to re-route the pickup cavity. Everything went just fine. The body came back to me a year later for different work and I noticed it was cracked too. I don't KNOW that it was my fault and the owner won't say it was me that did it, but I can't see how it wasn't my fault........ it HAD to be my block that did it. I filled that crack with plent of thin CA........ now it's "Saul Goodman".

The moral of the story is- Basswood will crack if more material is squeezed into it than it originally had. I don't even put toothpicks into strap pin holes anymore......... and that used to be one of my favorite fixes.
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post #11 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-30-2015, 09:17 AM
 
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Re: Jem 90th Loose Stud Insert

Quote:
Originally Posted by panix View Post
My question still stands tho : how did you manage to crack your basswood? Obviously "something" must fill the ovaled space, not? What if just super glue and wood glue are not enough?
I can't speak for any specifics of RGT's experiences but in general basswood is a very soft wood and can crack easily if you're too rough with it. I've personally made accidental cracks in basswood by putting in a screw with the pilot hole drilled too small. It's essentially the same thing in your toothpick example, too much pressure in a small space and eventually something is going to give out. In these instances the basswood will be what gives out and cracks as it's the weakest material in the equation.

There are a few things I think you may be looking at the wrong way that's causing your confusion....
#1 - This will answer your question on proper fixes. The goal is to return the hole to its correct size and roundness. The superglue fix works when the hole is only slightly out of shape. It will stabilize the wood and be enough to fill the small gap. If the hole is ovaled more than what superglue can fix you can use a woodglue and sawdust slurry to fill the gap or in extreme cases you may need to plug the hole and redrill it. In any case after determining the extent of the damage the first step is to remove the stud. You don't want to be trying to fill and fix the gap with the stud still inserted. Trying to wedge something in there with the stud still inserted will put too much pressure in that area and can potentially crack the wood especially in softer woods like basswood.
#2 - If I understand your toothpick solution you just shoved them in the gap without removing the stud. This is not the best solution but will work as a quick fix in dense woods like the maple in your guitar. The maple is stronger than the toothpicks so they will just smush in there. In soft woods like basswood, the toothpicks are actually stronger so the basswood will be what gets smushed and crack.
#3 - When I say a crack, and I'm suspecting this is also what RGT is talking about, Iím not talking about a giant crack of several inches, maybe just a few millimeters. A few millimeter crack isn't the biggest of deals but in an area like the stud inserts, between the movement, pressure & tensions that small mm crack can develop into several inches.

The big take away from this, which will hopefully clear things up for you, is that basswood is very soft and fragile. Let's face it you can start to chip away at it with you fingernail. I like to make the joke that you can dent it if you stare at it too hard lol. By trying to shove something in there even with slight pressure, that pressure can be too much for the basswood to take and therefore it can start to crack.
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post #12 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-30-2015, 09:41 AM
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Re: Jem 90th Loose Stud Insert

^^^ thanx mad.

I have noticed this about basswood myself. VERY SOFT. I wonder how can the basswood AANJ deal with forces of 100 Kg or more on seven string guitars. What would happen if I string up with 13's, the 7th being some 70', with a total force of 90 Kg, and then I pull the trem 2-3 full tones? Will the guitar be still in shape?

Anyway, I concur about the sawdust solution.

Still, call me stupid, I cannot see how sticking one toothpick by hand, could be so fatal to basswood, UNLESS WOOD GLUE EXPANDS!!! If the toothpick (birch?? bamboo??) just fills the gap of compressed basswood, why the crack? What does the toothpick does that the basswood in its original uncompressed state didn't do?
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post #13 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-30-2015, 09:45 AM
 
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Re: Jem 90th Loose Stud Insert

Quote:
Originally Posted by RGTFanatic View Post
I did it doweling and drilling two anchor bores on an old RG570. The bores for the inserts are 27/64th's. You can't get dowels in that size here so I got 7/16th's poplar dowels. 7/16th's is only 1/64th larger than the correct size. I figured I was ok. I glued it, pounded it in, and let it set over night. The next day the crack was there from the trem cavity through the anchor bore and into pickup route.
Wow! that's a pretty rough crack for the dowel only being 1/64" larger. I'd suspect that older dried basswood & the woodglue making everything swell would be just as much of the culprit as a 1/64" oversised dowel.

Basswood has its advantages but can also be big headaches in instances like this.
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post #14 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-30-2015, 09:52 AM
 
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Re: Jem 90th Loose Stud Insert

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Originally Posted by panix View Post
UNLESS WOOD GLUE EXPANDS!!!
Now you're starting to get the idea... but it's not so much the woodglue itself expanding as it the glue saturating the wood and causing it to expand. That coupled with more material that origanilly in there being squeesed in can be a a cause of the split. This is especially true of older wood that is dried out alot.
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post #15 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-30-2015, 10:06 AM
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Re: Jem 90th Loose Stud Insert

So wood glue penetrates basswood *more* than e.g. alder or maple?
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