Jem crack neck lock allen screws - Jemsite
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post #1 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-30-2015, 03:49 PM Thread Starter
 
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Jem crack neck lock allen screws

Known crack experience guys,, but luthier used super glue, its strong but the crack shows, i tried sanding it but still is there,, what can i use the cover the crack lines?marker ?, pen? I have a white jem ebony !!
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post #2 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-30-2015, 05:44 PM
 
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Re: Jem crack neck lock allen screws

here's how you do it...
http://www.ibanezrules.com/tech/setup/crack_neck.htm
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post #3 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-30-2015, 09:49 PM
 
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Re: Jem crack neck lock allen screws

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Originally Posted by stathis169 View Post
Known crack experience guys,, but luthier used super glue, its strong but the crack shows, i tried sanding it but still is there,, what can i use the cover the crack lines?marker ?, pen? I have a white jem ebony !!
More info needed...........

Where, precisely, is the crack?

Do you have pictures available?
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post #4 of 30 (permalink) Old 10-01-2015, 02:55 AM
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Re: Jem crack neck lock allen screws

super glue is not for critical parts of the wood.
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post #5 of 30 (permalink) Old 10-03-2015, 06:15 PM
 
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Re: Jem crack neck lock allen screws

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Originally Posted by panix View Post
super glue is not for critical parts of the wood.
Sure it is.

CA is the most common fix for cracked wood in most any application. It's just to hard to work with on major repairs such as a complete separation of pieces or ugly tears.
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post #6 of 30 (permalink) Old 10-04-2015, 12:28 AM
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Re: Jem crack neck lock allen screws

^^^ Super glue when cured provides no elasticity and can crack easily again. Have you ever seen a set-in neck glued with super glue? Super glue is not for wood to wood joints. Also can ruin the finish on the guitar.
I remember once you mentioned hide glue. IMHO this glue might be more appropriate for tight cracks. (I have never used it).

Last edited by panix; 10-04-2015 at 12:57 AM.
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post #7 of 30 (permalink) Old 10-04-2015, 09:37 AM
 
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Re: Jem crack neck lock allen screws

Sorry man, but your absolutely wrong on this one.

CA (cyanoacrelate,superglue) is used extensively for wood repair not only in instrument repair, but also in trim carpentry, and joinery, as well as any woodworking studios (art studios, framing,...etc.)

Please understand that I've been woodworking for 34 of my 48 years on this planet. CA is used extensively and SPECIFICALLY because of it's permanancy in wood repair. It's also very user friendly when it comes to after repair work such as sanding (doesn't clog sand paper) and finishing.

There are some drawbacks to CA however. It does NOT accept stain or dye very well. It's also VERY hard to work with in large joints such as a neck joint. There's just too much surface area to get a good wet bond in the short amount of working time you get with CA when joining. For the same reason, It's also nearly impossible to repair a tear (major headstock break, or separation).

CA is also used extensively in clear coat finish repair on most instruments, including guitars, because of it's ability to seamlessy drop fill chips and polish to a mirror finish. Google "drop fill guitar" to see what I mean.

There are many different types of adhesives available and all of them excel in one situation or another but none are perfect for every job. It's up to the person doing the job to understand which type is correct for the repair in front of them. I HAVE used hide glue many times and really enjoy using it. I'll suggest it more in the future when I see situations that I think it's the best adhesive to use in a particular repair.
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post #8 of 30 (permalink) Old 10-04-2015, 09:44 AM
 
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Re: Jem crack neck lock allen screws

BTW.......

A neck repair done with CA will NEVER re-break along the same line as the original repair. The repaired joint is massively stronger than all the wood around it. As Rich said many years ago, I'm willing to prove it if your willing to pay me to smash one of my repaired necks.....
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post #9 of 30 (permalink) Old 10-04-2015, 03:35 PM
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Re: Jem crack neck lock allen screws

Hmmm I have seen Dan Erlewine gluing wood dowels in neck heel holes with CYA so it must not be that bad.
OTOH the thick CYA does not cure that fast. 60 seconds are enough to correctly position a set-in neck, or an acoustic guitar's bridge. Provided that it would save tremendous time to the factory I would tend to believe that if super glue was that effective it would replace PVA in those tasks.

So RGT, what's your theory ? 2 mins vs 24 hours? in the factory?

Also, please show me of a CRITICAL wood JOINT application in GUITARS where CYA is used, from the factory.
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post #10 of 30 (permalink) Old 10-04-2015, 03:44 PM
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Re: Jem crack neck lock allen screws

Ooops I found this which reafirms what I said (I am not used to be "absolutely wrong dear RGT in any form in my life.... this case is no different, pls follow me ) :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_glue

Quote:
Cyanoacrylate (Crazy glue, Superglue, CA or CyA) is used mainly for small repairs, especially by woodturners. It bonds instantly, including to skin. Cured CA is essentially a plastic material. Versions are available that are able to wick into tight joints but bond with reduced strength (because much drips out and much soaks into the wood leaving very little on the surface for the bond), or thicker formulations (gel) which can fill very small gaps, do not flow out of the joint, and do not soak so quickly into wood. Thinner cyanoacrylate glue does not bond more quickly nor form shorter polymer chains than the gel version when used on wood. The chemical nature of wood significantly delays polymerization of cyanoacrylate. When it finally polymerizes in a wood joint, enough gel remains for a better bond than with the thin version. When using the gel, too much glue will weaken the resulting bond. Likewise, applying too little of the thin super glue will result in almost no glue at all remaining in a wood joint, causing a weak bond or no bond at all. Versions are also available that are foam safe (regular CA dissolves most plastic foams) which are usually also marketed as low odor. Cyanoacrylate is stiff but has a low shear strength (brittle) thus normal wood bending can break the bond in some applications. Often, too much adhesive is applied which leads to a much weaker bond. CA has quickly become the dominant adhesive used by builders of balsa wood models, where its strength far exceeds the base materials.
Hmmm Not so wrong finally dear RGT, don't you think? Wikipedia just confirms my intuition....
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post #11 of 30 (permalink) Old 10-04-2015, 06:20 PM
 
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Re: Jem crack neck lock allen screws

My poor, poor, panix,

OK, if we really have to do this, but I can assure you that your intuition AND Wikipedia are no match for real world experience.

CA is NOT used in production work for many reasons including it's cost, it's highly flammable nature, the fact that it's a known carcinogen, AND it's gasses can be toxic in quantities. Wood glue possesses none of these problems. They typically are a skin and eye irritant only.

I don't know who wrote the wiki article but they're dead wrong about nearly every aspect of the CA subsection. You DO know that anyone can write a wiki article, right?

- wicking (thin) CA wicks INTO the wood grain- not out. ALL glues will wick into wood, the thinner the glue- the deeper it will wick. A deeper wicking action will cause a significantly stronger bond. Because of the grain structure of the wood (open, heavily tangled straws) the CA runs through these "straws" and fills them. When the CA cures, it locks these "straws" across the break and deep into the still strong fibers on either side of the crack. Imagine a million strap ties bridging the gap of the crack and rooting deep into the still viable material on either side.

Gel type CA's are NOT good adhesives to use on wood joints because the DO NOT WICK deeply at all. Gel type CA's are typically thicker than most wood glues.

Christ, as I'm typing this I'm realizing how stupid it is to reply. I CANNOT teach you 30 years worth of professional woodworking experience in a couple of posts. There are variables in everything- woodworking being no exception. You either know which glues are appropriate in any given situation, or you don't. If you want to go on thinking that EVERY woodworker and EVERY luthier has it wrong simply because your intuition tells you such......then enjoy your misconception for as long as possible. Meantime, I'll go on using that which has been tried and tested over the last several thousand years by those that DID, not those that "Thought it should".
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post #12 of 30 (permalink) Old 10-05-2015, 12:04 AM
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Re: Jem crack neck lock allen screws

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Originally Posted by RGTFanatic View Post
My poor, poor, panix,
My life does not depend neither on CYA or PVA to be poor or rich about. My life depends on good manners tho. Edit this if you want to get the slightest chance to read your text.
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post #13 of 30 (permalink) Old 10-05-2015, 08:32 AM
 
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Re: Jem crack neck lock allen screws

Yeah, I'll jump right on that.
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post #14 of 30 (permalink) Old 10-05-2015, 09:21 AM
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Re: Jem crack neck lock allen screws

Please lets all be civil. No need to get upset about glue.
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post #15 of 30 (permalink) Old 10-05-2015, 11:43 AM
 
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Re: Jem crack neck lock allen screws

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Originally Posted by pwsusi View Post
That's a great article.

With the use of regular Fenders for two decades inside homes, studios, and on all types of gigs, I never saw a broken or cracked maple neck. Maple is like steel.

But those pesky holes drilled into RG necks (Jacksons, Charvels, etc), which are already thin, brings up neck cracks on maple in a way I never saw with Fender and other non-locking, trem system maple necks. I thought it may be game over on maple and not as easy to seamlessly hide as on a common break on a mahogany Gibson neck.

Mahogany is so forgiving in sealing and hiding cracks, but maple?

The example on this page on a maple neck makes it look like it never happened. Amazing!

Last edited by 63Blazer; 10-05-2015 at 11:49 AM.
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