A little advice needed with a faulty ENGL amp under warranty - Jemsite
Tech: Setup, Repairs and Mods Guitar workbench discussion such as setup, repairs, mods, installing new parts and more.

 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-28-2011, 04:48 PM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Gloucestershire, England
Posts: 315
Reviews: 21
A little advice needed with a faulty ENGL amp under warranty

Hi

I bought an ENGL invader 100 amplifier in the UK.

In under a year the valves started to become faulty, although at the time I didn't know it was the valves at fault. Basically the amp decided to start blowing loads of load cracks, pops and horrid hum through the cab even on stand by. Never had a head do this to me before and it only became apparent way afterwards that it was the valves.

I eventually got the amp head sent back to the dealer and there it sat for a good month with very little contact. After about 6 weeks I called up the dealer, who admittedly has been polite and helpful the entire time and they said the amp had gone off to an external company (hazy if this is actually ENGL or some company they use to do repairs) and the guy hadn't even started looking at it after he'd had the amp sat there for about 3.5 weeks.

So the dealer was good enough to send me out a reconditioned ENGL invader 100 head which I have been using now for about 2 months. As I'd not heard anything at all during this period I assumed the matter might be closed.

Now after all this time I get an email today saying that apparently valves are not covered under warranty and I'm liable to pay 275 to get the amp fixed. The dealer suggested that paying half with me was potentially acceptable to close the deal.

What I'm wondering here, is that surely under UK law my warranty of 24 months in this case, is with the retailer, not ENGL or any other company the dealer chooses to service my amp. For this reason perhaps they need to further analyse their small print and terms and conditions about getting stuff repaired... but ultimately I'm not prepared to shell out 135 to fix something that clearly went wrong under warranty without any fault of my own.

I kinda thought that was what a warranty was and under no circumstances was it explained to me that if should be the valves at fault the warranty wouldn't cover it. If this ends up costing the dealer money... why do I care? I want my amp back which is covered under warranty in working order.

Advice please?
I am correct?

P
D1m3b4g2 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-28-2011, 06:47 PM
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Serbia
Posts: 576
Reviews: 2
Re: A little advice needed with a faulty ENGL amp under warranty

He's right for the part that valves aren't covered. On the other hand, 275 quid sounds quite a lot for a set of valves. Fireball JJ tube set costs just a bit over 100$, invader shouldn't have more tubes in it. Even if you pay half, it's still almost double the real price to replace them. Also, there's no way that all tubes turned bad. Preamp tubes should be good for a few years, even if one died the rest of them are fine.
Or I misunderstood and there's a damage inside the amp that's caused by a faulty valve?
bancika is offline  
post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-29-2011, 07:52 AM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Gloucestershire, England
Posts: 315
Reviews: 21
Re: A little advice needed with a faulty ENGL amp under warranty

I haven't got a majorly clear picture as to the technical issues or where my amp head even ended up, but what I was told was just a valve replacement. Email quoted verbatim:

"We sent your amp back for repair and the technicians have said they need to change the valves and re bias. Unfortunately the valves are not covered under the full years warranty and the parts, labour and transit costs total 275.04."

The invoice hasn't been paid yet via the dealer to the ... well whoever has my amp, the company charging. I'm fairly sure that if no one contacted me to get my authourisation to carry out repairs which would incur a cost and I did not give that authorisation when I left the amp with the dealer, strictly they cannot recover the cost from me as the repairs were carried out without my permission.

I'm a bit dismayed that I used the amp an entire three times before it started going wrong, once for a show, twice for a practice and now I'm being expected to throw out a good 135 for repairs. I love the amp but ENGL have pissed me off quite badly in this experience.
D1m3b4g2 is offline  
post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-29-2011, 09:00 AM
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK,LONDON
Posts: 1,060
Reviews: 17
Re: A little advice needed with a faulty ENGL amp under warranty

Don't pay it, argue yourself out of it and get your amp back.

It's not fair for them to repair it without your permission and not even let you know that it will cost you.

Can't you just keep the reconditioned one they sent you? :P
Speedabob is offline  
post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-29-2011, 11:38 AM
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Orangevile, on, Canada
Posts: 324
Reviews: 3
Re: A little advice needed with a faulty ENGL amp under warranty

to pay nearly $440 for new tubes and bias is crazy. for a matched quade of jj el34, should cost you about $60-70, anf for 4 pre amp tubes that should be about $45-50 including the phase inverter. refuse to pay that much
IBZshredder is offline  
post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-29-2011, 01:58 PM
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Athens GA
Posts: 941
Re: A little advice needed with a faulty ENGL amp under warranty

$440 for tubes, bias, testing and shipping, not too crazy.

In every written warranty I have ever seen on a valve amp it specifically excludes the tubes, and also states that if you send the item in for warranty service and they find a non warranty issue you will be held liable for all repair and shipping costs. They sold you a perfectly working amp, it is not their fault your ignorance of tube amp maintenance caused you to mistakenly send the amp in for warranty coverage when it was functioning fine.

I admit it sucks, and you got burned, but in all honesty you burned yourself on this one. Chalk it up to a learning experience, take you licks and pay them the money you most likely owe them.
musikron is offline  
post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-29-2011, 02:07 PM
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK,LONDON
Posts: 1,060
Reviews: 17
Re: A little advice needed with a faulty ENGL amp under warranty

Quote:
Originally Posted by musikron View Post
$440 for tubes, bias, testing and shipping, not too crazy.

In every written warranty I have ever seen on a valve amp it specifically excludes the tubes, and also states that if you send the item in for warranty service and they find a non warranty issue you will be held liable for all repair and shipping costs. They sold you a perfectly working amp, it is not their fault your ignorance of tube amp maintenance caused you to mistakenly send the amp in for warranty coverage when it was functioning fine.

I admit it sucks, and you got burned, but in all honesty you burned yourself on this one. Chalk it up to a learning experience, take you licks and pay them the money you most likely owe them.
Why should he pay for repairs that he didn't agree for them to undertake? He could have taken it to his local guitar tech shop and got it done cheaper.

Also, How can you be so sure that he messed up the tubes and it was not a fitted with bad tubes to start with or even an Ex-demo ? Sometimes its not the players fault you know...
Speedabob is offline  
post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-29-2011, 02:08 PM
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,953
Re: A little advice needed with a faulty ENGL amp under warranty

you are getting hosed on the tubes . I have an orange amp currently serviced tubes and bias $180
dragsternj is offline  
post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-29-2011, 03:03 PM
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Athens GA
Posts: 941
Re: A little advice needed with a faulty ENGL amp under warranty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedabob View Post
Why should he pay for repairs that he didn't agree for them to undertake? He could have taken it to his local guitar tech shop and got it done cheaper.

Also, How can you be so sure that he messed up the tubes and it was not a fitted with bad tubes to start with or even an Ex-demo ? Sometimes its not the players fault you know...
By sending the amp to them for repair, you are authorizing them to service the amp. And of course it would be cheaper locally, just like a car, going to the dealership is the most expensive way to get it done. But by taking your car there you are agreeing to pay a premium on services, no different here. And you also have to deal with shipping a heavy head a fair distance, that will add $200 round trip right there alone. He is also paying a premium to have someone knowledgeable about this amp specifically go through it, and by having them service it instead of a local guy, he is NOT voiding the warranty for future use. take it to the local tech and coverage stops there for ever. This way if something happens withing the covered time frame he can send the amp in to Engl.

And I never said he messed up the tubes. But tubes are VERY sensitive, consumable items, and are often damaged in shipping, or ruined by someone misusing them in a demo amp, which is why they are specifically excluded from the warranty in the first place. Thats like covering strings in a warranty.
musikron is offline  
post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-29-2011, 09:26 PM
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 2,561
Reviews: 34
Re: A little advice needed with a faulty ENGL amp under warranty

Quote:
Originally Posted by D1m3b4g2 View Post
Hi

I bought an ENGL invader 100 amplifier in the UK.

In under a year the valves started to become faulty, although at the time I didn't know it was the valves at fault. Basically the amp decided to start blowing loads of load cracks, pops and horrid hum through the cab even on stand by. Never had a head do this to me before and it only became apparent way afterwards that it was the valves.

I eventually got the amp head sent back to the dealer and there it sat for a good month with very little contact. After about 6 weeks I called up the dealer, who admittedly has been polite and helpful the entire time and they said the amp had gone off to an external company (hazy if this is actually ENGL or some company they use to do repairs) and the guy hadn't even started looking at it after he'd had the amp sat there for about 3.5 weeks.

So the dealer was good enough to send me out a reconditioned ENGL invader 100 head which I have been using now for about 2 months. As I'd not heard anything at all during this period I assumed the matter might be closed.

Now after all this time I get an email today saying that apparently valves are not covered under warranty and I'm liable to pay 275 to get the amp fixed. The dealer suggested that paying half with me was potentially acceptable to close the deal.

What I'm wondering here, is that surely under UK law my warranty of 24 months in this case, is with the retailer, not ENGL or any other company the dealer chooses to service my amp. For this reason perhaps they need to further analyse their small print and terms and conditions about getting stuff repaired... but ultimately I'm not prepared to shell out 135 to fix something that clearly went wrong under warranty without any fault of my own.

I kinda thought that was what a warranty was and under no circumstances was it explained to me that if should be the valves at fault the warranty wouldn't cover it. If this ends up costing the dealer money... why do I care? I want my amp back which is covered under warranty in working order.

Advice please?
I am correct?

P
Do you have a copy of the warranty and who is it from? If it is from the dealer, then it has to be published somewhere, even if it is online.

Does it have specific limitations to do with valves or consumables, and where does 24 months come from; normally it is 12months in the UK.

Did you buy this on a credit card? They often have extra insurance and protection included.

If you've given it back for repair under warranty and the problem isn't covered, then yeah you are liable. After all, they have incurred cost which they can't reclaim from the manufacturer: they are bound to try and pass that back. If you are unhappy with the cost/service and the dealer has made you a "reasonable offer" (half the cost and a loaner for a couple of months) then you aren't going to get much joy out of any other bodies that you might complain to. If I was a dealer and this had come up I would have outlined what is not covered to you when you brought it in (in valve amps, it is almost always the valves isn't it? ) and probably called you to confirm the issues before incurring cost, but that is a policy thing rather than a legal thing.

I'm assuming that you didn't read the warranty before you bought it (seriously, who does ) but this is a lesson that we can learn from. Remember, people:

Caveat Emptor - let the buyer beware!

Are you correct? Morally, probably; legally, probably not mate
nickcoumbe is offline  
post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-30-2011, 09:43 PM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Gloucestershire, England
Posts: 315
Reviews: 21
Re: A little advice needed with a faulty ENGL amp under warranty

"They sold you a perfectly working amp, it is not their fault your ignorance of tube amp maintenance caused you to mistakenly send the amp in for warranty coverage when it was functioning fine."

I'm sorry but I might be misunderstanding what you're saying here.
Or perhaps you're misunderstanding me.

The amp was not functioning fine, the amp was blowing out huge cracks and pops through the cab when it was on stand by. Me not knowing this was specifically the valves in the head wasn't so much ignorance as a lack of knowledge. The amp started doing this very early on and started getting at its worst when it was 11 months old. I'm a little bit unsure of where this whole idea of me ruining the tubes comes into it. I've had a Marshall TSL 100 head for 6 years or more now and it's never gone wrong. I always ensure the amp is cared for, moved around with a cover or a case and that it's jacked into a cab at the correct Ohmage before turning it on. Any neglect you're implying is just plain wrong.

I believe I have the receipt for the amp head but I was never informed of anything to do with the warranty other than being covered on the entire unit for 2 years. The valves being faulty not being covered via the warranty was never mentioned.

I sent the amp into the dealer on the understanding that it WAS covered under warranty, would get fixed and sent back to me. It was only 4 months after the problem manifested and that I'd already received a replacement head that I was informed the valves weren't covered and retrospectively asked to foot the bill.

Nick - the 24 month warranty is stated in an email from said dealer to myself.
I think I have the sales receipt but I have no idea about what the actual warranty entails, I was told by the dealer it's within a year, everything is fine. At the time of sending it back in however we didn't *know* it was the valves at fault. The dealer didn't either.

musikron - I sent the head back to the dealer on the understanding I WAS covered under warranty. If I'd sent this into the place and they'd turned around after 2 weeks and said "We apologise sincerely but the valves aren't covered under a warranty, you're liable but this is what we can arrange for you" I'd be more than willing to help out.

The fact I reported this 4 bloody months ago and have been told I am covered under the warranty for the repairs and now told this length of time into the future I'm liable to pay a horrendous repair cost leaves me a tad bitter.
D1m3b4g2 is offline  
post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-30-2011, 10:02 PM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Gloucestershire, England
Posts: 315
Reviews: 21
Re: A little advice needed with a faulty ENGL amp under warranty

I've got a bit more information, I'm starting to feel sorry for the customer service person who helped me out here.

Labour: 120
Parts: 91.20
Carriage: 18
VAT: 45.84

At today's conversion rates that's $146 just for the tubes and another 192 dollars to fit them.

The last part of the email sucks:

"I'm not surprised you want to proceed how you have suggested, there isn't actually anything I can do to make you pay anyway. I thought I would I contact you to let you know what had happened and see if you would help me out. My manager is going to come done hard on me for this mistake."

Sigh.

I won't leave the guy hanging, got to do something I guess.

In my own opinion I'm a bit annoyed how the company the head got sent off to takes 3 months to identify a tube issue and then charge enormous amounts to fix it. Then this guy is going to take it in the neck via his manager when all he's really done is the right thing and provided some great customer service.
D1m3b4g2 is offline  
post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-01-2011, 05:04 AM
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 2,561
Reviews: 34
Re: A little advice needed with a faulty ENGL amp under warranty

Quote:
Originally Posted by D1m3b4g2 View Post
I've got a bit more information, I'm starting to feel sorry for the customer service person who helped me out here.

Labour: 120
Parts: 91.20
Carriage: 18
VAT: 45.84

At today's conversion rates that's $146 just for the tubes and another 192 dollars to fit them.

The last part of the email sucks:

"I'm not surprised you want to proceed how you have suggested, there isn't actually anything I can do to make you pay anyway. I thought I would I contact you to let you know what had happened and see if you would help me out. My manager is going to come done hard on me for this mistake."

Sigh.

I won't leave the guy hanging, got to do something I guess.

In my own opinion I'm a bit annoyed how the company the head got sent off to takes 3 months to identify a tube issue and then charge enormous amounts to fix it. Then this guy is going to take it in the neck via his manager when all he's really done is the right thing and provided some great customer service.
I still think you are on a sticky wicket, but.....

Employees trying to garner sympathy with customers sounds a bit fishy to me. Sounds like someone is trying to turn you over a little bit mate, don't get drawn into feeling sorry for people that have let you down. I can't believe that you aren't already talking to the manager about this. Leaving an amp in the store for weeks before sending it for repair and not telling you the cost of the repair before it is undertaken is not good customer service. Lending you an amp is pretty cool.

Have you actually e-mailed Engl about this? I'd write to them whatever the outcome. In fact I would get hold of their customer service dept and visibly copy them in on every e-mail to the dealer, and e-mail the dealer with a run down of any discussions every time you have verbal communication.

Look, somewhere there has to be a warranty from someone that you can download whether it is the Engl website, the dealers website or whatever. Every retailer and manufacturer have to print their terms and conditions. If it wasn't explained to you and the warranty wsan't given to you at the time in a manual or something then I think that you have a reasonable case to say "show me where it says that the valves aren't covered".

Also, I'd be refusing to pay 50% of that breakdown. Parts at 92 sounds like a retail price and labour at 120 seems high to me. Carriage and VAT are obviously fine. Did they have to do more than just the valves or are they trying to make a profit over and above what the repair guy is charging? If it was popping from pretty much day one then getting progressively worse could it be that it wasn't biased correctly coming out of the factory? I would like to know exactly what they have done, and why the labour charge is so high. It can't take that long to change four valves and rebias, surely.

At this point, I'd be talking to the manager and saying the following things:

Where does it say that valves aren't covered by your warranty? In future you ought to be telling your customers up front. I believe this was misrepresented at the time of purchase.

If the issue is truly not covered by a warranty, then why exactly wasn't I contacted with a quotation for repairs before this work being undertaken?

I am unhappy with the quality of the product and your service as a dealer. I would like a full refund. I'll take my business elsewhere.
nickcoumbe is offline  
post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-02-2011, 12:33 PM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Gloucestershire, England
Posts: 315
Reviews: 21
Re: A little advice needed with a faulty ENGL amp under warranty

Fair point, I'll work something out.
Thanks a lot for your guidance as always

P
D1m3b4g2 is offline  
post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-23-2011, 10:15 AM
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Staunton, VA
Posts: 204
Re: A little advice needed with a faulty ENGL amp under warranty

I don't like that whole situation. Yes it sounds like they sold you an amp that was working fine. Tubes generally only carry a 30 day warranty if any. If they are working fine when you get them they should be fine for quite a while unless you have faulty equipment driving them past what they are meant to handle. So I can understand tubes not being covered under warranty. Just because you didn't read the warranty doesn't make it someone else's problem. However, this pertains the the manufacturer's warranty. If the dealer offers their own warranty, then you have to make sure of what the wording allows and excludes.

My real problem with this is that you took the amp back to the dealer for service and if I'm reading this correctly, the dealer sent the amp to a third party for repair, without your prior consent and without effectively diagnosing the problem. Then the third party performed repairs without your prior consent, and possibly without the dealer's consent as well.

I think it should have happened in this order.
1) You take the amp to the dealer
2) The dealer does a diagnostic to the extent of his ability.
3) The dealer informs you of his findings and get's your approval to send the amp to a third party tech.
4) The tech does his own diagnostic and informs the dealer of what needs done to fix it.
5) The dealer informs you of what the tech has found and get's your consent to perform the repairs at an agreed upon price.

This is like taking your car to the dealership just to find out what is wrong with it and coming back to find a bill for fixing a list of things you were never told about. I would be having a round with the car dealership over it and I'd be having a round with the amp dealer on this as well.

I think the problem is a lack of communication on the part of the dealer and tech.
gideond is offline  
Reply

Tags
engl , invader , valves , warranty

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Jemsite forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address

IMPORTANT: You will be required to activate your account so please ensure that your email address is correct.

If you do not receive your activation check your spam folder before using the CONTACT US form (at the bottom right of each page).



Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
JPM advice needed? fractionallz Vendors, Auction & Reseller Talk 6 02-14-2008 03:09 AM
Advice needed! FailToShred All Other Guitars (including Prestige) 19 12-24-2007 05:48 AM
Engl E530 users!!! help needed NNS Gear, Equipment, Recording & Off Topic 1 12-31-2006 10:58 AM
advice, help needed!!!!! Hartfolk All Other Guitars (including Prestige) 25 12-03-2005 02:55 PM
Some advice needed. beckisagod Ibanez JEM, UV, JS & Other Signature Models 32 08-31-2005 01:29 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome