Technical Genius Required ! - Jemsite
Tech: Setup, Repairs and Mods Guitar workbench discussion such as setup, repairs, mods, installing new parts and more.

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post #1 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-04-2009, 05:02 PM Thread Starter
 
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Technical Genius Required !

I have an Edge Trem on my guitar and so I was interested to learn about this product.

h##p://floydupgrades.c**/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=76&products _id=195

(Sorry, I am not yet allowed to post links for some reason so please replace the ## with tt and the ** with om)

Never one to just believe hype I started to read up on the subject and I discovered the following post on the ESP forum. As I am somewhat “Intellectually Challenged” I wonder if anyone, less dim than myself can add any light on the quote ?

I can follow it to some extent but I would appreciate a better explanation if possible. I understand I could ask on the ESP forum but as I am a proud Jemsite member and not a member of the ESP forum I thought I would give it a try here first.


Quote:
mass =/= sustain

Mass does not necessary mean sustain.

Why?

Considering the Floyd Rose bridge with the metal block is one simple object or a single simple system.

The natural frequency of a system is Wn = (k/m)^0.5

where
Wn = natural frequency of a system in rad/s
k = spring constant in newton force per meter N/m or pound force per feet lb/ft
m = the mass of the system in kg or slugs

k in the case of a simplified system as a Floyd Rose tremolo bridge will be the tremolo springs on the guitar backside and more accurately should include the guitar strings' spring constant. (Spring constant doesn't really matter in the case of explaining mass and sustain relationship. You will see why.)

The mass is simplify the weight of the Floyd Rose bridge with the metal block. The weight of the tremolo springs and the guitar strings should be added with the Floyd Rose's mass for an accurate modelling.

Now assuming k (spring constant) remains constant

The only way to change the natural frequency of this case is by changing the mass.

By increasing mass = low natural frequency
By decreasing mass = high natural frequency

The frequency, W, you apply to a string or strings is called drive frequency or applied frequency or force frequency (don't remember the technical name). It is actually the frequency of the string(s) vibrating when you pick it and continue to be present until the movement of the string(s) dies.

When W=Wn, the system (Floyd Rose bridge) is at resonance.
At resonance, the bridge will vibrate like crazy, which not desirable.

More stable bridge means less energy of the struck spring(s) is transferred to and loss in the bridge, resulting in more sustain for the string(s).

A vibrating bridge means more energy of the struck spring(s) is transferred to and loss in the bridge, resulting in less sustain.

Think of it as the holding end of the string(s) is not tight but lose. Therefore the less sustain and less quality in the movement of the string(s).

Now the since there are 6 or 7strings in a guitar, the W applying on the bridge is in a wide range. Depending on the range of the W the following case will appear:
If W>Wn, add more mass is a good thing.
If W<Wn, lighting the mass is a good thing.

If the following parameters are provided, a person can enjoy the basic understanding if changing the mass will help sustain:
-number of tremolo springs used
-the spring constant per spring
-the mass of the Floyd Rose tremolo bridge with the metal bock plus the springs (string mass can be ignored as its small comparing to others)
-The string(s) in Hz after being picked or expressing W as a range the strings will go through. ( f= Hz---> W=2*Pi*f)
*The spring constant of the strings is tough to get but it can be neglected or assuming its equal to the springs'.
Thanks.
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post #2 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-05-2009, 01:06 AM
 
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Re: Technical Genius Required !

Over analyzed baffle you with bulll$hit. Waste of time even reading it.
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post #3 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-05-2009, 02:22 AM
 
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Re: Technical Genius Required !

Basically I think he's saying you want your system to be out of phase so that it causes destructive interference so that your bridge isn't vibrating in sync with the strings and if it were perfectly out of phase then your trem system would act basically like a through body hard tail bridge. He's saying that if the entire system were in phase then the vibrating motion of the strings will make the bridge move like it (in miniscule amounts) making it act as a dampner due to the springs... however if I'm correct in my thinking, it'll just store the "loss energy" inside the springs which will then continue moving the bridge back and forth prolonging the sustain... in which case the only difference of the system being in/out of tune is the energy due to the inefficency in the springs which causes energy loss through heat and energy transfer with the guitar body... which is neglible. Basically he's absolutely right in saying that more mass =/= more sustain... but it's impossible to calibrate your guitar to be completely out of phase due to the change in string tension when you play higher frets... what more mass will do however is keep more of the energy inside the string/bridge system rather than transfering more of it into the spring/body... honestly I think all of this is neglible but whatever floats your boat ;D
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post #4 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-05-2009, 04:59 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Technical Genius Required !

Hi mrrawrl


Thank you very much for tackling that and taking the time to explain it to me !!

I understand your explanation much better. So I guess he is right then but only in a theoretical / unnoticeable way ?

After your explanation am I right in thinking that the brass blocks do actually work (although not optimally) ?

If following your explanation further I wonder if having 5 springs (more mass) but slacker would help sustain better than 3 springs set tighter ?

Another thought would be to somehow try to stop the springs transferring energy to the body. With Hi Fi speakers some have feet on them where they are titanium cones going to a very fine point. This is to stop vibration transferring to the floor or shelves the speakers are stood on.

I wonder if this principle could be used to attach the springs to the guitar body. I appreciate that the claw only has 2 reasonably small screws holding it in place but if these are transferring energy to the body we are loosing sustain.

I wonder if the claw was mounted flat to the body onto maybe a steel plate this might help ? Instead of pulling inline it would be at right-angles to it. Probably a better idea anyway.

Oh and to answer your question, my boat is soooo floated it is out of the water !
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post #5 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-06-2009, 07:11 AM
 
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Lightbulb Re: Technical Genius Required !

Unfortunately I haven't read anything in this thread that's even remote to the physics that actually determine this type of behaviour.
The basic thing you need to know is that the string/spring-tremblock system will have a resonance frequency much lower than the strings:
somewhere around 5Hz, where the lowest string frequency is ~80Hz.

Any interaction between these two is mostly unwanted, as they will cause tuning/intonation problems first and foremost.
This interaction is what we know as trem warble or flutter and can be used as an effect (notably Vai, but also Petrucci) As it is imposed as a low frequency modulation (say 5Hz) on the regular note, it can best be compared to a heavy chorus effect that quickly fades. It also bleeds off string vibrational energy. But at the same time, exciting the trem arm to get flutter will put some energy in the system so the note can be sustained by sharply hitting the trem arm repeatedly.

Adding more mass to the trem block will lower this flutter frequency, but not by much: doubling the mass will only reduce the frequency by less than 30%.
Adding extra springs will increase the flutter frequency: going from three to five trem springs will move flutter up by 30%.
Neither one makes enough of a difference considering the distance between flutter and string frequencies.

Sometimes you will find another unwanted warble effect at much higher frequencies (>250Hz), which would be the springs themselves vibrating. This effect is almost independent of spring numbers or trem block mass. Most people try to avoid this effect with some cotton wool inside the trem springs (while still allowing flutter).

Side notes
1) you cannot easily change the mass of the trem, but you can rotate the whammy bar. Pointing it down (or up), means it will have very low rotational interia, pointing it back (or forward) increases inertia, if the trem bushings are tight enough, you may notice this. Loose bushings will dampen flutter.
2) a heavy trem will affect tuning, when the guitar is not perfectly vertical. Tune it flat on your lap, and it wil be out of tune standing up.
3) higher mass anywhere will mean:
-lower resonance frequencies (-30% for every +100% increase in mass)
-any damping effects are relatively smaller,
-higher forces are necessary for similar movements.
-Since many damping forces are proportionate to movements, smaller movements might mean less damping.
4) a very light trem block still works: the Allan Holdsworth signature Ibanez had a machined Aluminium trem, three times lighter than brass or zink.

Last edited by eviltwin; 08-06-2009 at 07:19 AM.
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post #6 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-06-2009, 03:44 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Technical Genius Required !

Hi eviltwin

Thank you very much for your post, but you have me thinking again !!!! Something I am not very good at !!

I must admit to being sceptical about this simple modification (Brass Block), it just seemed too easy.

I wonder if manufactures are actually “tuning” their blocks to the trem-block ? They may be using lightweight blocks but perhaps that guitar / trem needs that weight.

You also made a good point about tuning with a heavier block, I hadn’t considered that.

I am all for adding sustain to my guitar but it seems from what you say I would add very little even with twice the size / weight and I would also darken my tone, not really something I want to do.

So would it be fair to say adding this mod to a guitar probably wouldn’t work as most people would hope for ?

Thanks.
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post #7 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-06-2009, 07:33 PM
 
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Re: Technical Genius Required !

I'm actually one of the very few authorized dealers for the stuff from floydupgrades and I have no idea about the technicalities of it, but I can tell you that the larger brass block does improve your tone by thickening it up. That and the ESP Arming Adjuster are the only two floyd upgrades that I would ever recommend to anyone as a tonal upgrade. It is one of the few products that I actually believe in enough to install in all my guitars (you can take a look at any of my guitars and you'll see both an Arming Adjuster and a Brass block installed).

If you want to try one let me know. I can probably work something out for you to try one. I should still have some blocks for the Edge/Lo-Pro edge as well as the edge pro and OFR trems.
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post #8 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-06-2009, 10:26 PM
 
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Re: Technical Genius Required !

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddroyce View Post
I'm actually one of the very few authorized dealers for the stuff from floydupgrades and I have no idea about the technicalities of it, but I can tell you that the larger brass block does improve your tone by thickening it up. That and the ESP Arming Adjuster are the only two floyd upgrades that I would ever recommend to anyone as a tonal upgrade. It is one of the few products that I actually believe in enough to install in all my guitars (you can take a look at any of my guitars and you'll see both an Arming Adjuster and a Brass block installed).

If you want to try one let me know. I can probably work something out for you to try one. I should still have some blocks for the Edge/Lo-Pro edge as well as the edge pro and OFR trems.
Hi, how can I try one of these brass blocks out? I have an edge with an arming adjuster and since I installed this thing my guitars sustain and tone became significantly better...

Regards. P.S let me know if we can work something out with regards to the brass block.

Nelson
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post #9 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-06-2009, 11:22 PM
 
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Re: Technical Genius Required !

Send me a PM about it.
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post #10 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-07-2009, 11:58 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Technical Genius Required !

Hi buddroyce

As you use these blocks I wonder if you could confirm or deny a few things please ?

The following is assuming no ESP AA is installed.

Would someone fitting one of these blocks to a Jem with an Edge trem lose any trem travel ? Up or down and if so how much ? If you are not certain about this please could you provide the dimensions and I will try to measure it.

Do you notice the guitar going out of tune when leaning forward, backwards or moving the guitar off centre at all ?

When you say “Thickens” the tone could this also be described as darkening it ?

Have you or anyone else ever made a demo of this block working ? Perhaps a guitar fitted with a standard trem block, pluck the string then time it and then the same guitar, amp etc but with just the block changed (No ESPAA) and then perform the same test ? I really think this will help your sales more than anything else. If people can hear the difference and take note of just how much more sustain this block delivers then we won’t be seeing these sorts of threads on forums !!

As for the ESP Arming Adjuster I can instantly see the benefits of this. I would be very interested in one of these but there is no UK dealer.

Also do you sell those “Noiseless Tension Springs” with the polymer coating ?

Thanks.
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post #11 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-14-2009, 01:10 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Technical Genius Required !

Quote:
Originally Posted by nsabino View Post
P.S let me know if we can work something out with regards to the brass block.

Nelson
Nsabino

Did you follow this up ?

I would really like this to be tested properly, are you able to do that ?

It seems plausible but after reading a little about this and some of the comments above I am a little unsure of the actual real world benefit of the brass block. It would be really cool if you could test it for us.
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post #12 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-14-2009, 07:47 PM
 
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Re: Technical Genius Required !

Quote:
Originally Posted by VBK-Shredder View Post
Nsabino

Did you follow this up ?

I would really like this to be tested properly, are you able to do that ?

It seems plausible but after reading a little about this and some of the comments above I am a little unsure of the actual real world benefit of the brass block. It would be really cool if you could test it for us.
Hey, yeah no problemo as long as anyone is willing to trust me and send me one for free.... If I like it I keep it and I'd pay for it if not I'd send it back, I consider myself an honest person, but my money is hard earned. I'd love to test this, my guitar is up for a fret dressing that I'm gonna perform myself, he,he... and it would be the right time to fit my trem with one of these...

P.S. I have a goeldo backbox and it did make a big difference with regards to sustain and tone definition

Regards,
Nelson
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post #13 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-14-2009, 08:31 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Technical Genius Required !

Quote:
Originally Posted by nsabino View Post
Hey, yeah no problemo as long as anyone is willing to trust me and send me one for free.... If I like it I keep it and I'd pay for it if not I'd send it back, I consider myself an honest person, but my money is hard earned. I'd love to test this, my guitar is up for a fret dressing that I'm gonna perform myself, he,he... and it would be the right time to fit my trem with one of these...

P.S. I have a goeldo backbox and it did make a big difference with regards to sustain and tone definition

Regards,
Nelson
Did you send buddroyce a PM like he asked ??

I got the impression he was willing to let you try it.
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post #14 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-14-2009, 08:42 PM
 
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Thumbs up Re: Technical Genius Required !

Quote:
Originally Posted by VBK-Shredder View Post
Did you send buddroyce a PM like he asked ??

I got the impression he was willing to let you try it.
Yeah, I PM'd him but I'd have to pay beforehand.... Priorities I guess, it's too bad I can't comment on the brass block, I'd like to try it and would definitely be flattered to be able to post my comments about it without having to pay for it. One thing I'll guarantee is that the goeldo backbox after being properly setup (pretty easy task to be honest) is worth every penny. Maybe if everyone interested pitched in, myself included I'd give it a go. Let me know if you can get some guys willing to adventure in this, it's not that expensive but if your a 'family guy' things become different.

Kindest regards to this awesome forum,
Nelson
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post #15 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-15-2009, 10:20 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: Technical Genius Required !

I guess we will have to wait until someone here buys one.

All I want to know is roughly how many more seconds of sustain the block will give me over a standard block (all other things being equal) and does it restrict how far you can pull up on the whammy bar on a Jem ?

The Goeldo Backbox is a done deal, I can see the benefits of that. In fact that or the ESP arming adjuster, either one but I think the ESPAA is better made as it has a ball bearing on the end of the push rod.

Shame there are no UK dealers for any of these products, the poor consumer over here has to deal with importation tax (basically a fine for not buying from the EU), long distance communications and currency conversion !!!

Anyone know of any decent music shops in the UK that stock this sort of thing ?
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