Transforming 6 string into baritone - Jemsite
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post #1 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-28-2004, 04:17 AM Thread Starter
 
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Transforming 6 string into baritone

I got an Ibanez EDR-470x (and I thought it would be nice to transform it into a baritone guitar (B-E-A-D-F#-B). However, although I adjusted the truss rod and spring configuration accordingly, the guitar is still going out of tune easily. I first used 0.08 and then 0.09 strings to see if the thin strings lose their tension quickly in lower tunings. The result is the same;

1-The strings go out of tune when I use the whammy bar or after extended playing
2-Despite I adjusted the truss rod, the tune on the first fret and 12nd fret is significantly different.

Any suggestions on how to get this right?
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post #2 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-28-2004, 04:32 AM
dex
 
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First of all you can't "transform" a normal guitar into a baritone just by adjusting the truss rod - baritones have longer scale lenght.
Second - if you want to downtune you need thicker strings, not thinner.
13-60 or at least 12-56 gauge strings will give you way more stable tuning.
After doing all this you will need to intonate your guitar so all the frets are in tune.

ilia
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post #3 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-28-2004, 09:30 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dex
First of all you can't "transform" a normal guitar into a baritone just by adjusting the truss rod - baritones have longer scale lenght.
Incorrect. Musically speaking, "baritone" is a note range between tenor and bass. You can tune a standard-scale guitar to that range, it's just not ideal without a lot of tweaking.

The reason most baritone instruments have a longer scale length is because lower notes have a longer wavelength, and the longer scale length and heavier strings help the notes to ring more clearly and intonate properly.

The scale length is not the defining factor for an instrument being a "baritone". The tuning is.

But you're right about the string gauges. At 25.5" scale, you're going to want the heaviest strings possible to tune down to B. Lighter gauges will get knocked out of tune if you look at them wrong.
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post #4 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-28-2004, 11:32 AM
dex
 
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Nitpicking.
Can you tune down any guitar - yes.
Can you transform any guitar into a baritone - only by changing the neck for a long scale one.
By deffinition in the guitar world a "baritone" is a longer scale instrument.
You know I'm right.

ilia
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post #5 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-28-2004, 01:06 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dex
By deffinition in the guitar world a "baritone" is a longer scale instrument.
You know I'm right.
by colloquial definition, a baritone has an extended scale length. Literally, "baritone" refers to the pitches, not the scale length.

Analness aside , goign for lighter strings is the LAST thing you want to do when detuning. Try a set of 11's tuned B-B; this ought to get you into approximately the same string tension you're used to on a standard-tuned six.

-D
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post #6 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-28-2004, 01:19 PM
dex
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dex
By deffinition in the guitar world a "baritone" is a longer scale instrument.
You know I'm right.
I'm sorry guys but this is NOT a singing forum - it's a GUITAR forum.
Do you really need to be this anal???

When was the last time I posted something that was complete and utter rubbish to warrant a "Deffinition of pitch for the slow" lesson???

ilia
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post #7 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-28-2004, 01:22 PM
 
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Whoa, hit a nerve there Dex!

Standard tuned guitars have a variety of scale lengths, as do bass guitars, so baritones could be just as hard to define. Works far better with the longer scale neck though.
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post #8 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-28-2004, 01:29 PM
dex
 
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You tell a million guitarists "baritone" - all 1 million will think "longer scale lenght"
You tell the same million "downtune" - 999 999 of them will think "tuning down a normal guitar"

As I said a few times - you know I'm right and all you guys are doing is nitpicking.
As simple as that.

ilia
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post #9 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-28-2004, 01:38 PM
 
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Just because 999,999 people are mis-informed, that doesn't make them right.
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post #10 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-28-2004, 01:52 PM
dex
 
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Are you telling me that when you hear "baritone" in reference to a guitar, you imagine a normal 25.5" guitar tuned down or at least 27" guitar tuned down???
Comunication breakdown.

akinu - disregard our bikering and get yourself a set of 12-56 strings.
After changing them, google "guitar intonation" and do it and for future reference - what you want to do is downtune your guitar, not transform it into a baritone.

ilia
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post #11 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-28-2004, 02:21 PM
 
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Interesting.

"Wow dude! Did you use a baritonguitar to record that song?"

"Uhm... I don't know. We played in the dark..."

Another thought. Would a sevenstring guitar be concidered a bariton? Does it have too many strings? Too short neck?

Could a uptuned sixstring bass be a bariton? Or would it's scale be too long?

Take your pills!
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post #12 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-28-2004, 04:36 PM Thread Starter
 
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Lol, the discussion is going really interesting. Thanks for all the replies.

Dex- What I meant by "transforming" is actually downtuning. I first tried my usual thinnest strings 0.8 and then saw that they didnt work, tried one bit thicker which is 0.9. Now I see that 0.9 is not enought too.

Guess I will leave the baritone thingy altogether. It sounds great but it is useless until you find a 5 string bassist or a similar tuned bass player.

Next 10 point question: This EDR is my new guitar, so (as I am also new to electric guitar tech) I am recently getting to know my instrument better. Is there any way I can figure out whether this tuning problem stems from the improper construction or setup of the guitar (bad construction of the neck or the bridge)?..
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post #13 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-28-2004, 05:25 PM
dex
 
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We're all crazy.
Sounds like you're not stretching your strings.
After changing the strings you'll have to be patient and tune the guitar up while stretching the strings.
Keep the nut unlocked for 2-3 days and keep retuning every time you need to.
After 2-3 days just adjust all fine tuners even and in the middle and lock the nut.
Fine tune and you should be in business.

For more details go here

http://www.ibanezrules.com/tech/setup/index.htm

ilia
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post #14 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-28-2004, 05:57 PM
 
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With all due respect, it shouldn't take 2-3 days for your strings to settle in. If you properly stretch new strings as you're putting them on, there's no reason why your tuning shouldn't be stable by the time you've finished the whole operation. With practice, you should be able to do the whole string change in well under an hour.
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post #15 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-28-2004, 06:44 PM Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dex
We're all crazy.
Sounds like you're not stretching your strings.
After changing the strings you'll have to be patient and tune the guitar up while stretching the strings.
Keep the nut unlocked for 2-3 days and keep retuning every time you need to.
After 2-3 days just adjust all fine tuners even and in the middle and lock the nut.
Fine tune and you should be in business.

For more details go here

http://www.ibanezrules.com/tech/setup/index.htm

ilia

Thanks dex.. Now the last (hopefully hehe) question. I dont like playing with heavy gauges, so I decided to tune up a bit so I tuned every string half interval up. So from B to B tuning, I tried C to C tuning and now everything seems perfect. Strings stay in tune and inter-fret tuning is reasonable.

The problem is, despite the spring tension is screwed to maximum, the bridge angle is a bit high and thus the action is high. As the springs are at maximum strech, I cant screw it more. What can I do to lower the action?
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baritone guitar , bridge angle , electric guitar , floating trems , gauge strings , guitar tech , pro edge , scale lengths , string bass , string gauges , string tension , truss rod

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