Tremolo Anti-deflection unit - Jemsite
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post #1 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-21-2012, 06:00 AM Thread Starter
 
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Tremolo Anti-deflection unit

Hey Peoples, I have seen that Steve Vai's EVO Guitar has Tremolo Anti-deflection units in it.

Does steve have these in any of his other guitars ?

Do they work ?

And can I purchase the same one that came out in the EVO repoduction ?

I would love to hear people think...Thanks.
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post #2 of 18 (permalink) Old 09-21-2012, 07:39 AM
 
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Re: Tremolo Anti-deflection unit

It's the Ibanez Backstop - http://joe.emenaker.com/TremStabilizers/Backstop.html

Don't think you can buy them new, and they go for silly money on eBay these days.
There's a cheaper alternative that's made by Goldo called the Backbox that does the same thing.
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post #3 of 18 (permalink) Old 02-22-2020, 08:37 PM
 
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Re: Tremolo Anti-deflection unit

I have two newly acquired trem stop devices, a Super-Vee Mag-Lok and an ESP Arm-Adjuster. They just came in the mail, and neither are installed. I looked at the ESP device (similar to Ibanez's backstop) for a few minutes, wondering just how the hell it works! If I bend strings, the trem pulls AWAY from the device contact point. How in the world, I asked, does that help? Then I realized, I would have to tighten my springs quite a lot, and the very tight trem springs are now what is keeping the trem from de-tuning during bending. The ESP unit is simply balancing the tension so the trem block doesn't tilt back when its springs are cranked tight.

So I don't know how anyone else feels about playing a trem that tight, but it would be a big difference compared to how my 1980's Jem77BFP feels now. I also have a JS2401 Satch guitar and the trem feels really silky and wonderful, called "Ultralite", a version of the Ibanez Edge. That's gonna take some getting used to if I have to tighten that down, cause it's the most delicate trem I've ever played. And I hope I can find an adjustment on at least one of these accessories that allows me to "chirp" a little. But that's doubtful. Funny, I don't chirp much. I just started with the Satch guitar. And now, I may lose the bird.

I think I'm gonna try the Mag-Lok first. Oh yeah and BTW, the Mag-Lok's supposed to come w/buffer pads that let me adjust how clicky/sticky the magnetic force is. In other words, how noticeable is the detent. It did not come with any such pads, so unless they supply them I'm gonna have to make my own. I'll start out with a tiny circle of velcro pad, loop side, and see how that works.

Last edited by MikoDel; 02-22-2020 at 08:48 PM.
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post #4 of 18 (permalink) Old 02-23-2020, 12:42 PM
 
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Re: Tremolo Anti-deflection unit

I tried the Super-Vee Maglok for awhile... it does work great at returning to zero and stopping things from going flat while bending. HOWEVER- what's lost is very important to me: subtle chord vibrato. You can't really do that with the Maglok, plus there's a little "click" (you can feel it) when you use the bar and the magnets disengage. So, not really smooth, no chord vibrato, and certainly no bar flutter if you do that sort of thing. You really can't "un-stick" the Maglok I'm afraid... it'll never be as smooth as a bar w/o it. I thought I could get it smooth enough to not bother me, but I could not. There was always the "click"/detent... and I could never get used to it. So I sold it.

I also have the ESP, but it's been in the drawer for over a year... after my experience with the Maglok, I wasn't in a hurry to try anything else. But I'll get around to it, someday.
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post #5 of 18 (permalink) Old 02-23-2020, 08:27 PM
 
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I've had the Ibanez backstop, the esp, a single and a double goldo backbox... I've removed them all. The backstop was a bit old and just didn't feel right. The esp is eh... the tension had to be pretty tight on the springs to achieve the equal balance. And again didn't feel good.

Then I tried out the backbox, which was just as disappointing as the esp... but when I added a second one it was actually pretty decent. Chord vibrato was legit, I could drop tune to D without issue. Double stop bends were clean. No flutter at all... Which I don't do much. But again the feel was tight and not natural feeling. Plus I had to keep them lubed with 3 in 1 oil after a while to keep it returning to zero.

In the end I removed it and bought a tremolno. I saw a video of Guthrie Goven talking about it. It comes installed in his signature Charvel. I actually really enjoy it. It only takes a second to enable any of the different functions. It can be free floating, dive only or hard tail aka No trem.

I eventually just couldn't deal with an unnatural free feeling trem. I kept picking up my other guitars that didn't have any stabilizer installed because I enjoyed the free trem feel.
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post #6 of 18 (permalink) Old 02-23-2020, 08:37 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikoDel View Post
ultralite
Be careful with that ultralite trem arm, I've heard of people breaking them. If you add something to that trem that makes it harder to use it may break. And those puppies are damn expensive. I've been wanting to get one... But spending $70+ on a trem arm is hard to stomach.
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post #7 of 18 (permalink) Old 02-23-2020, 09:38 PM
 
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Re: Tremolo Anti-deflection unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by JsXLine6 View Post
Be careful with that ultralite trem arm, I've heard of people breaking them. If you add something to that trem that makes it harder to use it may break. And those puppies are damn expensive. I've been wanting to get one... But spending $70+ on a trem arm is hard to stomach.
I've busted one. Every bar breaks at the same place (at least for me) right above the bushings where it comes outta the trem, def a bummer when its $70 vs $20. Tbh, i'm kinda over the ultralite bar. It looks cool, but that's about it. I think you can "feel the note(s)" more with the og one, if that makes sense.

EDIT: and "tremelo anti-deflection unit" makes me imagine Fujigen commandos rappelling from helicopters to service edge bridges...
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post #8 of 18 (permalink) Old 02-23-2020, 09:42 PM
 
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Gotcha, yeah... I am definitely not getting one then.
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post #9 of 18 (permalink) Old 02-23-2020, 11:41 PM
 
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Re: Tremolo Anti-deflection unit

LOL @ Fujigen commandos executing a covert, break-of-dawn low-profile edge mission... TREM LOCK-DOWN IS SECURE!!

Really good stuff here. I appreciate the voice of experience from you all.

I'm coming to the realization that maybe I'm only gonna modify one of my trem equipped axes (I have three) and leave the other trems in stock trim. Stock trem trim. And for sure I'm gonna leave the Ultralite ALONE. I didn't realize you could beat it "to death".

The Tremel-NO website is really cool, I love when information is combined w/ a good sense of humor. That seems like the only thing that retains stock feel.

But then again, check out the comment I shared on the YouTube vid "Joe Satriani's Live Setup Revealed":

... for fellow players, I noticed @ 9:00 in the video and 9:45 when Joe plays the classic double-stop bend (G string up a step makes a min 3rd over B) he doesn't do anything to keep the Floyd from de-tuning. I have the JS2410 guitar, set up to near perfection with .010 strings, bridge perfectly level... but double-stop bends? Forget it. Unisons are a bit easier to bend both up and make them true, but G over B is impossible to do as Joe does here. I have a magnified screen capture of this vid and Joe isn't compensating in any way. The 2nd string is perfectly straight. And he's not applying reverse trem pressure cause he actually floats the trem during the bend....
-----------

So just let that sink in... while he's holding the bend, Satch does exactly what the one person complained goes away with the Mag-Lok - chord vibrato. So I can only figure my choices are, find the correct thickness buffer pad to dial in a subtle but still effective magnetic force that allows at least semi-smooth bi-directional trem vibrato, or crank my springs tighter and use the ESP. I forsee a lengthy adjustment project balancing the ESP position and spring against the main springs. Yeah and keeping it oiled so it floats back to correct pitch, I saw that coming too.

Also tightening the trem springs will increase my string tension, providing less of a slinky feel. I switched to .010's a few years back after playing .009's all my life. All my electrics are always drop D, tuned down to A=417Hz (healing frequency), so even w/ .010's the electrics play pretty slinky. But bending up a whole step with my first finger is a little tough, and tightening the springs will only make it harder. But that's why I have multiple guitars. Who says I have to be able to play the same exact things on all of them?
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Last edited by MikoDel; 02-23-2020 at 11:49 PM.
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post #10 of 18 (permalink) Old 02-24-2020, 07:35 AM
 
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Re: Tremolo Anti-deflection unit

What I have never understood about these devices, with the EXCEPTION OF the MagLok because it WORKS), is how any of them keep double stop bends in tune. These devices do not keep OPPOSING pressure on the blocks (meaning, when you bend a string, the tremolo goes DOWN a bit, these devices only apply pressure in THAT direction, not the opposite direction which is what is needed to keep double-stop bends in tune.) I get it if the goal is "return to zero", but not keeping double stop bends in tune.

The Maglok succeeds at both, but the free feel of the tremolo is gone.

I once asked David Grissom (KING of double stop bends) how he keeps them in tune... his PRS terms are set-up stiff; 5 springs, but they are floating, not decked. His reply was "good question really.... you just make it happen". Gee, thanks Dave LOL. I have my superstrat set up this way (it's a non-locking Bladerunner trem) and it helps quite a bit with the double stop bends. Compared to my Charvel, which is a Floyd with only 3 springs and goes quite out of tune on those bends.

Someone would need to create a device (which would require a lot more routing the guitar) like the backstop... but it has to also include a 'FRONT' stop, on the OTHER side of the block. So stops on BOTH sides of the block. That would achieve both return-to- zero as well as keeping double stop bends in tune... but it couldn't be a drop-in, the guitar would need retrofitting to achieve it, which would likely keep people from buying it.
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post #11 of 18 (permalink) Old 02-24-2020, 08:13 AM
 
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Hey MikoDel, he is compensating... His right hand is on his bar, preventing the bridge from moving. At least that's what is looks like in the picture.

And ruger9, the way the the others work to allow double stop bends to work is by over tightening your trem springs. Then the backstop (or take your pick) spring tension needs to be set to push hard as well. That way there is a lot of pressure in both directions making double stop bends work as they should.

So in other words the bridge block is actually resting in the direction of the stabilizer. You have to have this tension so the bridge appears to be level, but the potential energy is going in the backwards direction. I hope this is understandable lol.
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Last edited by JsXLine6; 02-24-2020 at 08:30 AM.
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post #12 of 18 (permalink) Old 02-24-2020, 01:24 PM
 
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Re: Tremolo Anti-deflection unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by JsXLine6 View Post
Hey MikoDel, he is compensating... His right hand is on his bar, preventing the bridge from moving. At least that's what is looks like in the picture.

And ruger9, the way the the others work to allow double stop bends to work is by over tightening your trem springs. Then the backstop (or take your pick) spring tension needs to be set to push hard as well. That way there is a lot of pressure in both directions making double stop bends work as they should.

So in other words the bridge block is actually resting in the direction of the stabilizer. You have to have this tension so the bridge appears to be level, but the potential energy is going in the backwards direction. I hope this is understandable lol.

No, I'm afraid I still don't understand. There's still nothing keeping the bridge from diving during bends except the springs... and if the springs are stiff enough to keep it from diving, the bridge would be decked against the body.
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post #13 of 18 (permalink) Old 02-24-2020, 02:02 PM
 
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No it wouldn't be decked against the body, it's decked against the backstop. And the backstop is pushing... So when you dive the backstop moves in the direction towards the block. So essentially the backstop almost never really leaves contact with the block unless you dive hard/far.
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post #14 of 18 (permalink) Old 02-24-2020, 03:01 PM
 
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Re: Tremolo Anti-deflection unit

Quote:
Originally Posted by JsXLine6 View Post
No it wouldn't be decked against the body, it's decked against the backstop. And the backstop is pushing... So when you dive the backstop moves in the direction towards the block. So essentially the backstop almost never really leaves contact with the block unless you dive hard/far.
I get that, but it still doesn't explain: when you bend a note, the bridge rises, lowering the pitch of string. It doesn't matter if the bridge is decked or decked against a backstop- the back stop isn't going to stop the bridge from rising. if the block moves, the bridge rises, and the pitch goes flat. The only thing acting against the pull of the bridge (bending a note) is the springs. And unless they are string enough to resist ALL bridge movement, the pitch goes flat. The backstop can't provide negative pressure against the block (like the springs do)... the Maglok does EXACTLY this, which is why it DOES keep the bridge from moving when bending strings. No other backstop-type device provides this negative pressure.

BTW- I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying that I do not see how, physically, one of these devices can stop the bridge from rising. If they DO, I surely hope someone can explain it to me... I'm no engineer, but I know physics... and I don't see how a backstop can stop the block from moving towards the endpin, which means the bridge rises, and the pitch flattens.
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post #15 of 18 (permalink) Old 02-24-2020, 03:11 PM
 
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Well that's the way I set mine up and it worked great. Even drop D tuning was really stable and simple to do. It essentially worked like my body mounted Floyd rose guitar did. It just had a very stiff feeling trem. Which really sucked. Since your springs are a lot tighter than they would normally be, it reacts like a body mounted Floyd with the springs tight to pull the bridge to the body.

Now I just bend the higher string a bit to match the string I am really trying to bend... And it works enough... But I see Guthrie Goven, satch ect... do double stop bends all the time but they tend to hold their trem bars. So I can only come to the conclusion that they are stopping the bridge from moving with the trem arm. Which is super friggin hard to do accurately.
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