Once again..Key signature problems.....Am i stupid? Help!! - Jemsite
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post #1 of 26 (permalink) Old 07-18-2003, 08:57 PM Thread Starter
 
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Once again..Key signature problems.....Am i stupid? Help!!

*Sigh* Ive just been searching not only on here, but on whole note (masive music reference site) and i am still confused as to how to work out a key sigature of somthing.

When i play piece of music then tried to find a chord that fits i dosnt mean anything to me. Most of the time i cant work out even a chord or anything as im not sure what im ment to be doing e.g. I listened to Enter the sandman as a mate said it was in Eminor , so i played an Eminor chord, and some chords from that scale, and.....well i was siting there saying to myself "Whats this meant to be telling me?" all im hearing is some chords that dont really fit in.


Maybe im just stupid, or maybe other people suck at explaining it, but it really dont get this. Either way any help would be great as im looking into rewriting some favorite solos and add my own ideas to them so i need to know what key things are in.
Swirly is offline  
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post #2 of 26 (permalink) Old 07-19-2003, 12:20 AM
 
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*shrug*

That's what's always frustrated me about music theory. I always sucked at it, so i gave up. I couldn't play a scale to save my life.

Ever tried just playing by ear and going with your gut instincts?
darren wilson is offline  
post #3 of 26 (permalink) Old 07-19-2003, 06:05 AM
 
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Trying to figure out chords to most rock tunes can be frustrating.

Enter Sandman, for instance: It's basically an e minor tune. But, the riff involves notes like Bb, C# which are out of the key signature. No wonder your e minor chords sound weird.

That's because many rock and metal tunes are riff-based.

You'll have more success figuring out keys and chords to Britney tunes. Try it. It might be fun.

I think the easiest way to figure out a key signature is to find the tonic, the place where it seems that is the most stable sound, not moving anywhere/always returning to that "foundation". Then just find the root note on the neck of your guitar. Of course, you have to have a sense of the tonality of the song. If you don't, well, you'll develop one sooner or later when you fuzz around with this stuff. Only losers quit!

The other way of figuring out a key is to try to noodle in a scale that fits the song. Of course, this only works in tunes that stay in one key. If you can play over a tune in A major an all the notes in the scale seem to fit, you're most likely in A major. And, you can wail in E minor (esp. e min pentatonic) over Enter Sandman ad nauseum.

Hopefully this helps you out a bit. Good luck!

ps. There is no reason for giving up theory. Learn to read music and learn the circle of fifths. After that theory's easy like beating up your three-year-old cousin.
Mr Orange is offline  
post #4 of 26 (permalink) Old 07-23-2003, 06:30 PM
 
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My problem is that I don't trust myself. If I've figured out what key a song is in, I'll go find a tab just to make sure I'm right.
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post #5 of 26 (permalink) Old 07-23-2003, 08:05 PM
 
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Patience, young jedi! Off to practice now!
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post #6 of 26 (permalink) Old 07-24-2003, 04:46 PM
 
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to figure out a key i was taught this

get every chord in the song. or the part that u want to solo over.
then get every note that every chord has:
for instance in this chord progression
C G Em D

the notes for each chord are
C: C E G
G: G B D
Em: E B G
D: D A F#

then u get all the notes that u found which are

C E G B D A F#

and then u put them in order so they make sense....

G A B C D E F#= this means that theyre in the key of G but since the chord progression starts with C then u will use Lydian mode.

i hope i got it right....anyone disagree? (if anyone does please ignore my post)
hope i was of service.
Sid Vai is offline  
post #7 of 26 (permalink) Old 07-27-2003, 03:58 AM
 
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did that help??
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post #8 of 26 (permalink) Old 07-29-2003, 02:49 AM
 
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Don't know if it helped, Sid Vai, but you got it right. C in G maj, fourth note, fourth mode, Lydian. It's still all the same notes of G maj, but starting the scale on C, the tonality will sound modal (not like major or minor, although those are of course modes as well, but I digress...) The modal sound will be Lydian, of course! Kinda like how a major scale sounds major whether you start it on D, A, or C#! Just the pitch is different. Good work Sid Vai.
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post #9 of 26 (permalink) Old 08-01-2003, 03:57 AM
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thanx (im sid except i couldnt find my username back )


is that the way u guys find the keys to songs??
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post #10 of 26 (permalink) Old 08-01-2003, 07:13 AM
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hmm...I've got one question - why not go with another first note once you've found and listed all notes? what I mean is, with the following notes (C E G B D A F#) you can make seven different scales, so why just go with G major?
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post #11 of 26 (permalink) Old 08-01-2003, 08:28 AM
 
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I take the same approach as Sid, looking at the progression

C G Em D

I immediately think C Lydian due to the D Major chord. If it was C Major ( e.g Ionian ) we would have a Dm instead due to the triads of the C Major scale e.g

C Dm Em F G Am Bdim

We would have a G Major progression if we had the G chord as our tonic e.g the first chord for example:

G Em C D

Which would be a I - vi - IV V progression.

So when you manage to work out a ( standard ) progression you can determine the scale by knowing your triads . Here's an example:

Am scale - A B C D E F G
Am scale triads -

Am - A C E
Bdim - B D F
C - C E G
Dm - D F A
Em - E G B
F - F A C
G - G B D

For Dorian we know it's the natural minor scale with a major 6th instead of a minor 6th e.g A B C D E F# G. So looking above that would mean:

B D F -> B D F# - B Minor triad
D F A -> D F# A - D Major triad
F A C -> F# A C - F# Dim triad

So if we saw a progression of the form:

Am C D Em

We'd say "Oh look a D Major chord instead of a D Minor, A Dorian will work over this"

Hope this helps.

Cheers
Mark.
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post #12 of 26 (permalink) Old 08-01-2003, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 403
hmm...I've got one question - why not go with another first note once you've found and listed all notes? what I mean is, with the following notes (C E G B D A F#) you can make seven different scales, so why just go with G major?
ok
thats a good question

now, look at the C major scale notice the intervals between each note...

C D E F G A B

between C and D there is step, between D and E theres another step, between E and F there is a halftep (meaning there is no E# or Fb) between F and G there is a full step, G and A has a step, A and B has a step, but B and C has half a step (meaning no B# or Cb) u got that???
i think thats pretty basic....ok moving along


so the pattern should be:
C - D , D - E , E- F , F - G , G- A
whole step - whole step - HALF STEP - whole step - whole step -

A - B , B - C
whole step - half step



ok, 403.....

the notes we 're working with are:

C E G B D A F#


look first for the four notes that are separated by a half step

the two note would be

F# - G and B - C


notice i underlined those two notes... one of these two notes is the Key that we are working with (remember that in the key of C major, the note before C would be B, which comes half a step before C...got it?)

how do we know if its either one?

go back to the pattern....

make sure the notes fit the pattern...


i hope i didnt confuse u....u wont have to go through all that once u have practiced it enough.

any questions at all just post a reply

Cheers
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post #13 of 26 (permalink) Old 08-06-2003, 02:47 PM
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thanks helped a lot
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post #14 of 26 (permalink) Old 08-07-2003, 07:20 AM Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid Vai
to figure out a key i was taught this

then u get all the notes that u found which are

C E G B D A F#

and then u put them in order so they make sense....

G A B C D E F#= this means that theyre in the key of G but since the chord progression starts with C then u will use Lydian mode.


I understand that you would use C lydian as C is the forst note of G major, Or is the chord progression started with A you would use Dorian right?

Now, once youve made triads out of all the chords youve found in the song (or the part you need to know) then written down the notes youve found, how do you put them in any order? I noticed Sid that you mentioned somthing in the last post about the major intervals (W-W-H-W-W-W-H) would you use that to put all your random notes in order? Or is it a case of just looking at the scale and saying, Ah i see that has the same notes as G major, therefore thats what it is, rather than trying to arrange it into somthing and go from there?
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post #15 of 26 (permalink) Old 08-07-2003, 03:30 PM
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yeah, i use that to put random notes in order. that way u know what key ur working with.
and then depending on what chord the progression is starting with then that is the mode u will be using.
i hope that clears up ur question (as i wasnt sure what u were asking). any other problems just ask.
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chord progression , harmonic minor scale

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