Ibanez JEM Forum banner
10K views 61 replies 25 participants last post by  rob777vdy 
#1 ·
Ok,,,,, I have tried everything,, but just can't seem to learn these things,, I need advice on any good books around especially ones with scales?? each & every scale detaileddd

It's just so annoying,, been three years and am still at the same spot where i was when i started.
 
#4 ·
Don't worry about it. It's been 23yrs since I started and have got no idea at all about scales and modes. I just know what shapes to play and how to stay in key.
When people say "Yes I played the Eb Lydian in the 3rd degree then moved to Gb, it's relative minor 3rd and played that in the 5th position".........

...To me they sound like that teacher out of Charlie Brown. I can hear sounds coming out of their mouths but it just doesn't mean anything.


;)
 
#6 ·
#15 ·
There seems to be a few of us here then! Plus after listening to Dee and Ben play, it makes we feel better! I had a few lessons last year and although it helped improve my playing, it didn't help me learn any of the scales and modes. What ever my teacher told me just went over my head :)
 
#10 ·
If I could make expletive laden personal attacks on this forum, I would. Theory is descriptive, not prescriptive. It will not hold you back or limit you in any way. What it does do is explain why musical concepts sound the way they do, allowing you far more freedom to develop your creative ideas. There is absolutely no reason not to learn as much theory as possible.
 
#12 ·
So i'm not the only one lol I bought a book a few months ago and some of it sunk in and i understood the circle of 5ths and I could work out scales on guitar from it etc, i thought oh wow i'm picking this stuff up!

Then the next few chapters have lost me, all the modes and 5ths 'n' 7ths 'n' 9ths and a whole bunch of other stuff that causes hand to scratch head :(

What gets me is ok I know a bunch of scales say for example A major scale i know 3 places on the guitar for example of where it is, but all the notes between those 3 shapes also contain the same notes which are also part of the whole A major scale on the whole neck.....but its just remembering where they all are, ok its easy to work them out which they are, but when playing fast you dont have time to work it out. If everything was just played in A major then ok youd get to learn them....but if playing B major for example although its the same shape, everything gets moved down 2 frets which ok is obvious but it just adds to the confusion when playing on the spot, again you dont have time to work it out.

So thats my main issue, and thats what i want to try and solve, there must be an easy or easier way than remembering.

So for me i pretty much do what Dee does, i kinda have a feel for what goes together just from years of experience of trial and error i guess.
 
#14 ·
He didn't say it is vital. He said there's no reason not to learn it.

Music is an art, yes. But masters of any art had a basis in years of hard work. I don't think Da Vinci just decided to pick up a paintbrush one day and paint the Mona Lisa. Many of us have a little natural talent but it's barely worth a damn if you don't know how to exploit it. Technique is one thing we can work on, but without theory all you've got are some hand movements.

Unless you have a prodigal ability to play perfectly and communicate exactly what you want by ear, theory is extremely important. And to say otherwise would be like saying you only need three fingers to play guitar. Sure, you'll get by, but given the choice, wouldn't you rather have four?

Furthermore, an understanding of music theory is not only important for understanding your music and instrument, it is also a way of communicating with other musicians. If I said to you, right, let's have a jam in E mixolydian. Would you be able to do it? Or would you just be standing there like a lemon? And how else could I explain this to you? Short of playing each note individually until you remember them.

Back to the original topic, I recommend "Improvisation Made Easier" by Frank Gambale - everything is broken down in detail and applied to the instrument with examples and jam tracks.
 
#16 · (Edited)
He didn't say it is vital. He said there's no reason not to learn it.
No, it was I who said it isn't vital. There is no reason to learn it if you don't care and you can get by just fine without it. I am living proof. Jimi Hendrix is living proof!

Music is an art, yes. But masters of any art had a basis in years of hard work. I don't think Da Vinci just decided to pick up a paintbrush one day and paint the Mona Lisa. Many of us have a little natural talent but it's barely worth a damn if you don't know how to exploit it. Technique is one thing we can work on, but without theory all you've got are some hand movements.
Not everyone who picks up a guitar is trying to be a master. Most of us do it for our own enjoyment while sitting in our bedrooms. Again, if you can get by without learning tons of theory it's all good. It all depends on what you are going for. If you want to totally master the guitar (which is impossible because we never stop learning) then yes, go ahead and absorb all the theory you can.

Unless you have a prodigal ability to play perfectly and communicate exactly what you want by ear, theory is extremely important. And to say otherwise would be like saying you only need three fingers to play guitar. Sure, you'll get by, but given the choice, wouldn't you rather have four?
Maybe, but if all I need is 3 fingers to do what I want to do, who cares? Remind me -- how many fingers did Django Reinhardt have?

Furthermore, an understanding of music theory is not only important for understanding your music and instrument, it is also a way of communicating with other musicians. If I said to you, right, let's have a jam in E mixolydian. Would you be able to do it? Or would you just be standing there like a lemon? And how else could I explain this to you? Short of playing each note individually until you remember them.
I would possibly say "play the scale through once" and then I'd pick it up on the spot. Most of the time I wouldn't have to ask you to show me the notes, I'd just hear the intervals and pick it up instantly. I have perfect and relative pitch. I certainly wouldn't be standing there like a lemon.

Come on, music theorists -- post up a tune. Theory is all well and good, let's see how you are in practice. I've heard Ben/Eggy already, and he's a great player.
 
#20 ·
Holdsworths system is no different from the conventional system other than the names he uses. Of course the way he approaches in the information is different, but that doesn't make the info itself any different.

The point everyone is trying to make (and maybe just not wording it correctly) is that no harm in learning theory, you can only gain from it. There's no such thing as too much knowledge.
 
#22 · (Edited)
Sure it makes sense, and to be completely honest with you I've lost interest in this conversation. Talking about theory for hours is getting as boring as learning it, so I actually can't be bothered to keep typing long posts... I'd rather be playing guitar. So are you gonna post up a track or what? I have encountered quite a few guitarists looking down their nose at people like me and trying to lecture us about how important theory is, yet, oddly enough, pretty much every single one of them was a robotic, uninteresting clone-boy with no personality in their playing! Lame jukebox heroes. This is not a personal dig at anyone btw, I haven't even listened yet and you might all be world class players for all I know.

BTW, how am I supposed to prove I have perfect pitch on a forum? Tell me how I can do it and I will be happy to show you. It isn't a bold claim at all. Last time someone tested me I told them the note that their living room door squeaked in when opened. Sure enough, when they reached over to the piano that was in the same room, it was correct (G#, to be completely anal about it).

EDIT: About your colour analogy, what you said is correct, but somebody who doesn't know how to make green instantly might come across an amazing colour in the process that they otherwise wouldn't have created. In other words, not knowing things can make you experiment and discover new things that you would not discover by taking the usual route. Thinking outside the box is not necessarily a bad thing.

This just goes to show you have no idea what the real use of theory is. Theory is not a tool for writing, it's a tool for analyzing. All us theorists probably write songs in just the same way you do; we write down what comes to our heads!
Cool. Try pressing "RECORD" next time.
 
#24 ·
Sure it makes sense, and to be completely honest with you I've lost interest in this conversation. Talking about theory for hours is getting as boring as learning it, so I actually can't be bothered to keep typing long posts...
Oh, come on Dee.. you play the 'I don't care' card every time you start to fall behind. Funny how you followed that statement with a long post, too. That's quite a post count you have there in any case. ;) I guess guitar playing's really eating into the time you're spending on the computer posting on forums.

Well, I didn't post a recording of myself because I didn't feel I actually had anything to prove. In fact, my whole point was it makes absolutely no difference. But then, the ones who are most committed to learning theory are likely going to be the ones who practice their playing a lot, too. Sure, you might stumble across the odd thing, I have accidents like that all the time too. I'm not saying someone has to have an exact or specific musical idea, they will have a broad one and work with it. In the same way there are many shades of green, you may stumble on a stunning one by mixing colours.. but it's still green. You may accidentally make an amazing shade of purple.. but that wouldnt be much good when you're painting a country landscape, would it? Unless you're picasso or something...

Ok, so you have perfect and relative pitch (let's just assume). Good for you. Not everyone has this, and it's a hell of a lot harder to develop from scratch than it is to just learn the basics of music theory.

I spend a lot of time writing and recording songs since I play in a band. I write from the 'ear', and I don't use a lot of theoretically advanced concepts. Why? Because they just don't sound as good as more basic things (to me). I also like to break the rules sometimes. But that's fine when you know the rules to be broken in the first place. Theory may be a framework, but it's not a cage!

I've posted plenty of tracks before, I'm not shy to put my playing out there. I didn't bother posting any tracks because it would have undermined my point that playing ability has nothing to do with it. So since you insist, here's a snippit from a demo I sent to the other band members last week:

http://h1.ripway.com/Alcaline87/SoloExample.mp3

Ibanezfreak777, I don't understand that process either and I don't think anyone would agree that's a good way to go about writing songs. Apparently its a common misconception that theory is a tool for song writing when in fact all it is good for is the very opposite; taking them apart!

All I'm saying is theory does nothing but good. No, it's not essential, but it's unbelievable to say it's not important. Anyone would be a better musician if they knew a bit more theory. If you're not interested, then fair enough! It's just a hobby after all and rule #1 is have FUN! But don't tell others who are interested that it's a waste of their time, because that's really not helping anyone.
 
#23 ·
I would have to agree, that theory is not important if you have the basics down.

I started playing piano age 4, learning music theory, then age 13 dumped the piano and grabbed the guitar. spent the first 3 years being taught and learning about scales and chords, then I dumped the guitar teacher to get my own style untill the last year of school of which I choose guitar as a subject. I then had to go and learn a whole bunch of scales modes, and was forced to play in a concert band, jazz band, and a rock band. I also had to study for a theory exam. It was like learning maths yukkkkkk. I passed my exams and learnt to read from a chart in the concert and jazz bands. but I got to tell you that after my final year of school, i never looked at another piece of theory till now age 32. I still don't. and I don't really use theory when I play or write music.

Lets say I make a song with drums bass keyboards etc...

I usually play on my guitar untill something sounds nice, and then I whack it on the computer. Idon't sit down and think ok im going to start on A minor and then start using rules. I can't imagine how bad that process would be...

I learnd about modes and cadences, plagel, tearsdapicady, not sure on the spelling. These are words for the structures of chords. man it was hard to laern and now I have no idea about how to even use that information

A tearsdapicady (again not sure on the spelling) is a 3 chord progression with minor chords and ending off on a major chord. can sound quite nice. So that knowledge I have but how the hell do i use that information

and the only thing I know about modes is and please someone correct me, because I still have no idea, is that each mode is a basic major scale just starting from a different note in the major scale.. is this correct ??


my point about all the crap I just wrote, is I studied heaps of theory from a very young age, but as an adult i just like playing the guitar and i hardly ever think about theory.

but as I am maturing, I can see how theory can help, but im just to damn lazy ;)
 
#27 ·
I think our main difference is that you think music theory detracts something from your playing whereas I I believe it enhances it. Not necessarily what's happening with your fingers, but certainly what's going on in your brain. It's a uniform way of thinking that just makes it all a lot easier to deal with. On the contrary, music is more confusing when you don't study theory!

But yes, our views aren't all that different. After all we're all doing the same thing - playing guitar. You happen to have the ability to recognise notes by ear - yes, you are very lucky. Unfortunately the rest of us who don't have such a gift need theory just to match what you can apparently do naturally.

What's that? D minor? Guess what set of concepts that name comes from! ;) In it's crude and basic form, yes, but this is all music theory.

And yes, we do sound a bit like Dragonforce since we're a power/speed metal band. Although I'd say i'm more heavily influenced by Power Quest and Sonata Arctica :). Thanks for listening!
 
#38 ·
Why does this subject always end up with people all over each other like pit bulls. The facts are as follows:

1. Musical theory is not going to improve your personal playing ability to any great extent; most of the concepts are absorbed and realised through years of practice in any event.

2. What the theoretical aspect does is allow for absolute transmission of information and absolute comprehension by a similarly skilled reader/viewer/listener. To outsiders it's gobbledygook.

Some instruments require you to develop your theoretical knowledge more than others - probably 99% of guitarists have the most rudimentary concept of music theory. Since I have spent most of my life working with a transposed instrument with only 9 notes (and my theoretical and technical knowledge of that particular instrument is excellent), I find the subject of modes confuses the hell out of me - at the same time I can hear and understand the applications and differences.

In short: you can get by without wide knowledge of the underlying musical theory. Like any other kind of learning, though, broadening your knowledge can only be of benefit in the long run.

(Before I get pasted for being simplistic in the above points, read them again).
 
#42 ·
hmm. well i can see the merits in both sides of this debate. let me preface by stating i have a degree in music composition and went through years of theory. i can say from personal experience that it has helped me a great bit in many areas. one thing i will say that i totally agree with that wild child and martyr machine have been saying is that theory is merely a tool for analysis. davyh said it is a method of communicating, which is also very true. i don't think it will necessarily turn you into a creative genius. why not? because theory looks at all that has been done throughout the years in all forms of music (well, typically western music) and breaks it down in an almost mathematical way into it's smallest bits of information. so how can a person gain creativity from studying a bunch of music that's already been written--some by composers who were themselves bucking the theoretical system at their time? good question :)

i'd say if anything, after studying all of those different types of music, you start to see redundancy everywhere, including your own music. truth be told, there are no new innovations in music. no new ways to combine the 12 notes that we work with and even microtonally, that has been explored for centuries in eastern countries. it can depress you to no end if you let it, lol. all we can do is put our own signature on tried and true concepts. and that 'signature' typically comes from techniques learned/innovated through lots of practice on the instrument. lynch's vibrato, hendrix's brilliant use of effects and feedback, eddie's tapping...these are what i'm talking about.

the piece of the puzzle that i think theory heavy people miss is that there are more ways to learn than sitting in a classroom buried in a book. stumbling on a scale by learning a solo from one of your influences, for example. you may not know the name of it, but if you practice it long enough, you will know the scale. same goes for chords and progressions and just about anything else that can be gained from theory. listening to dee play (awesome, btw!), it's obvious he has a very advanced level of knowledge, even if he doesn't know the proper names for everything that he's doing.

that being said, theory can potentially get you to point a to point b quicker. but some people like taking the scenic route :) and there's nothing wrong with that at all.
 
#44 ·
i don't think it will necessarily turn you into a creative genius.
So true. 30 years of piping and I was very good indeed. I still haven't written more than two tunes, both of which were crap. I'm a good arranger though and I can set up a pipe band faster than I can set up a Floyd equipped guitar.

Creativity? No, I'm too literally minded. That needs a spark which some have, tuition and theoretical knowledge or not.
 
#45 · (Edited)
I enjoyed reading your post, rastachild. You seem to have alot of wisdom on this subject.

It reminded me of my old guitar teacher that I used to go to about 13 years ago. He was a theory nut and absolutely passionate about all styles of guitar. I got in touch with him a few months ago by phone and I was shocked by what he said and how jaded he sounded :sad:.
He said that he gets very little pleasure out of music nowadays because he can identify any chord, mode, key etc etc and his pitch was excellent. He said he couldn't appreciate music anymore because he just analysed it and "saw right through it".

I know this is an extreme case, but your post made me think of it.
 
#49 ·
I am 36 and I starting playing between 12 & 15 (I forget exactly), but I am finally starting to learn and understand it! Because, I have a teacher that knows how to teach theory! It is amazing that there are different approaches to musical theory (MT) and musical theory for guitar (MTFG). MTFG is still musical theory but the approach can be different. I had a professional jazz guitarist with a degree in music and now he is the top musical director for a college near where I live. He IS not a good teacher, I never understood theory by him. I now have a great teacher with a degree but he knows to approach it so it is easy to understand and he gears it towards guitar, however, he still transends all MT. I am finally learning keys of music, different scales, modes, minor major, diminished, EVERYTHING! I am so happy I found this guy!!! I also had other teachers that would show me a scale and blaze over the notes, that when I would ask a question about staying in key, that's where they would lose me and not know how to explain or teach it, this guy is the Einstein of guitar teaching!

So you have to find someone that can teach it or books that are easy to understand.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top