I'd appreciate a sticky on this because everybody that uses PayPal deserves to know this. It isn't just some rant, there is valid info.

I've just spent over an hour on the phone to PayPal's 'customer service' team (if you can call it that) to dispute a claim a buyer has put in over a transaction I have had with him.

Basically, the buyer didn't like the guitar when it was received and decided he wanted a refund. Since I didn't think it was fair that just because he didn't fancy the guitar anymore that I should have to refund and take a hit on e-bay fees, I declined. He then files an "Item not as described" claim and lies about the condition. I sent a huge e-mail explaining everything and detailing what had happened (get this, the buyer wanted £35 as a partial refund for no good reason! if not, a full refund) yet PayPal STILL decided that he was elligble for a full refund plus postage.

4 things here:

1. PayPal freely admitted on the phone that they do not ask for proof that the item wasn't as described.

2. PayPal freely admitted that they offer NO protection to the seller other than to claim you as the winner of the dispute if the item is not sent back within 10 days of the final decision. That is the ONLY protection you have! To be a default winner if the buyer is too lazy to send it back.

3. PayPal (again!) freely admitted that as soon as you list PayPal as a payment method, you have zero rights when it comes to refunding buyers and they do not take the sellers opinions into concern in any way whatsoever.

4. PayPal admits that the buyer can damage the item to match his/her description and they will not do anything about it, even if you have proof. It must go to the police, not them.

So the moral of the story here is (and not that any of you fine Jemsiters would do this) if you buy something using PayPal and decided that you want a refund because you don't like it anymore (for whatever reason) you DO NOT HAVE TO OFFER ANY PROOF THAT THE ITEM IS NOT AS DESCRIBED. You will win! No questions asked!

I'm sorry but that is the final straw as a seller using PayPal.

One last kick in the teeth... they keep the fees they took from the original transaction. Unbelievable.

Another note that I forgot to add to this, was that when they froze the money from the transaction they took the full amount, leaving me with minus balance in my account.

When you have minus balance, you CANNOT USE PAYPAL TO BUY ANYTHING, you must forward money to your PayPal account from your bank account which take 5 working days usually. Either that or you must get a friend to forward some money to your account (which is what I did.) A huge inconvenience if you didn't know and you buy something and are unable to pay the seller. Obviously it reflects on you and makes you look bad, especially if you don't know anyone that can forward you some funds as you have to wait 5 days before you can pay the seller.

That's terrible Dave, especially point 4!!!

I guess the PR from recent **** seller scams has put the balance too far towards the buyer, so that a genuine seller gets screwed

I've heard that PayPal has gone to crap since evilBay bought them, but haven't had any trouble with them yet (knock on wood). Well actually, they have made unauthorized withdrawals from my bank account before to pay **** fees. The second time they tried it, my bank got into a pissing match with them, because I told them never to let it happen again. They threatened to file a lawsuit if it happened again, so I got lucky.

Don't sit back and take that garbage from them. Take it to the courts. If not even for the money, do it because of the principal. They had the gall to screw you over.

In any event, I hope you get this worked out.

I wouldn't mind (well I would) but I even gave the buyer a hard case for free as well as a free set of strings as a goodwill gesture!

I'm going to think long and hard about what to do here because I feel I've been completely shafted. PayPal have had tens of thousands of £££'s worth of transactions from me and this is the treatment I get? They can stick it.

You loose shipping, that's it. In the US [anyway] they don't keep the 3 points, it's a refund and no refunds are charged the points.

Paypal has always worked this way with e-bay. I've had to use it many times, warranted of course.

Well I lost my e-bay listing and final value fees as well as shipping costs and the 4% fee they charge you to take payment overall.

Absolutely unbelievable !!
I would be paying the buyer a special visit , no messing .

Your FVF is refundable, as you know.

I guess it's just the US they don't keep the fee [at least I don't think they do, I might be wrong because I don't have that type account]

35 pounds was probably a better alternative.

that sucks what are the viable alternatives ?

I've had a similar thing happen twice now...

Last year I sold a pedal - the buyer had clearly changed his mind and registered a dispute claiming it didn't work. The funds were frozen and I had no way of proving it did work so I had to send a refund. Obviously when I got it back it worked fine.

Last month I sold a mixer - it took 2 days longer than I estimated for the post office to deliver it and the buyer registered a dispute. Again the money was frozen and I was asked for a tracking number - I gave it but even after the PO website said it had arrived the buyer didn't tell paypal so I had to wait until they checked (2 weeks later) to get the money back into my account (which took another 5 days).

Both times I complained that the buyer and seller should be allowed to make a statement before deciding to freeze the funds otherwise anyone can just register a dispute and cause a major headache.

you can also use moneybookers. so far they seem to be more "balanced"

What really pisses me off about this affair is that Dave really is a fair and straight up trader and gives 100% on every sale .
Are you sure you got all the facts correct on this Dave ? It just doesn't add up for me . I just cant see how Paypal can be so flippant with situations like these .

Same thing happened to me. Buyer raised issue with Paypal (from the US) and boy did I get screwed. It was SNAD he said, and Paypal from the US actually supports SNADs. Guy got his refund, AND got to keep the goods.

When I did the same (raised a SNAD) from Europe with a seller in Asia, I got a message from Paypal that "we only support non-delivery complaints outside of the US". So, I lost my money, and got stuck with fake goods.

Nice thing of Paypal to tell me to read the agreement, which clearly states their rules/limitations in Europe, which I (read and) agreed to when I opened my account.

Absolutely, positively, 100% correct. Everything I put in the original post comes from PayPal representatives.

I'll never take PayPal as a payment method again. Anyone that wants to buy from me must use either bank wire, cash or postal order.

Depending on how things go here, I'll be going to the UK Watchdog and trading standards.