-10 or +4? - Jemsite
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post #1 of 16 (permalink) Old 07-23-2007, 01:35 PM Thread Starter
 
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-10 or +4?

i am using the delta 1010lt cards in my current setup, sonar 6 pe, and was wondering what difference it would make on my recordings. i want to get my tracks to punch more on the front end. was hoping that with this and a preamp would result in better tracks. i believe that i have it set on -10 db now and would like to hear from guys with experience...Rip, jemaholic, and Wolfram most notably.


rich
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post #2 of 16 (permalink) Old 07-24-2007, 07:31 AM
 
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Re: -10 or +4?

Rich,

As per your 'Preamps?' thread. With a specilist preamp you 'should' (would hope) get better results although some of the new ProTools internal Preamps are very good (apparently?). I will tell you when I get the new 003R!

The second part of your question I'm not sure I fully understand? Rip, Jemaholic?
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post #3 of 16 (permalink) Old 07-25-2007, 11:12 PM
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Re: -10 or +4?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rty13ibz98 View Post
i am using the delta 1010lt cards in my current setup, sonar 6 pe, and was wondering what difference it would make on my recordings. i want to get my tracks to punch more on the front end. was hoping that with this and a preamp would result in better tracks. i believe that i have it set on -10 db now and would like to hear from guys with experience...Rip, jemaholic, and Wolfram most notably.


rich
Hey there,
The line levels you speak of will have no effect on the actual "sound".

output levels come in typically 3 flavors.
Mic level output -40
unbalanced line -10
balanced line +4

Most consumer equipment looks for -10 (anything rca, 1/4 (tip/sleve), 1/8..etc)

Balanced is where more "pro" stuff is looking for +4
XLR, 1/4 TRS (tip, ring, sleeve)


Example: today i did a pretty big commercial spot.
It was shot on HighDef so I sent my mix to the camera which looks for +4 line level.

I also sent my mix to my portable recorder which also looks for +4 line.

But I also had to send my mix to the Video assist person (person who records the picture/sound to his own deck so when the director wants to see
a playback he does it from his own equipment so the camera never has to rewind)
Anyway, this guy needed an rca feed from me...which i immediately understood.. -10
If i would have sent him a +4 the sound going into his system would have been to hot (loud) and it would have distorted.

Back on subject, you need to find out what your delta wants to see.
Look it up.

Remember, if you send a +4 signal into something looking for a -10
it will distort way easier.

If you send a -10 signal into something looking for a +4
you will have to turn the volume up way higher than you should to get a good level, in turn creating more hiss and noise in your signal.

Hope this helps, Im burnt out right now and probably not making much sense.
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post #4 of 16 (permalink) Old 07-25-2007, 11:21 PM
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Re: -10 or +4?

one little addition that might help

A guitar cord 1/4 has a tip and a sleeve.
It is unbalanced.
The tip "hot" is the actual signal.
The sleeve is the ground.

In a 1/4 end that has a tip RING and sleeve it is balanced. You probably think of it as a "stereo 1/4"

You can wire up a TRS (tip ring sleeve) so its an UNbalanced 1/4 STEREO. (tip= Hot left, ring= hot right, sleeve=ground)
Or you can wire up a TRS so its a BALANCED MONO,

where the Tip is still hot, the sleve is still the ground, but the ring is called "cold" (negative).
When the signal is going down the Hot (positive), And the Cold (negative)
both, there will be less chances of outside interference getting into your
audio.

An XLR (microphone connection) is a BALANCED mono cable.
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post #5 of 16 (permalink) Old 08-04-2007, 11:34 AM
 
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Re: -10 or +4?

yea i would say the easiest way to check is this
if you cables are lookin like gtr cables(mono) then stay at -10
if they look like headphone cables go (stereo) +4
if you go +4 with the wrong cables you won't get any advantage

this is a very simplified version of what was already posted above maybe it'll help
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post #6 of 16 (permalink) Old 08-04-2007, 09:40 PM
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Re: -10 or +4?

Funny enough I just got done dealing with something very similar. I run a 002R and record a huge drum kit. The 002R has 4 built in pre amps, 4 1/4 ins, 8 channels of ADAT lightpipe, and 2 channels s/pdif. I recently added a external 4 channel pre (ISA 428 ) that hooks up ADAT (leaving room for that coveted Vintech 473 on the other 4).

That is a lot of history but the point is I now have 8 pre amps, 4 1/4s, and 4 channels open for the future (with my set up you have to pick between ADAT and s/pdif, 8 vs. 2, easy choice).

Ok, here is the part that actually pertains to your situation. I need 12 mics to record the afore mentioned huge kit so I ran tom mics (dynamic, audix D-2s and D-4s to be exact) in to the 1/4 ins using a XLR to 1/4 balanced adapter. At +4 it was way to hot, distortion. At -10 its kind of quiet. I did a lot of testing and the Focusrite pre amps in the 428 sound better than the Focusrite pre amps stock in the 002R. The 1/4s were totally out of necessity and the second I get that $3,000 for the Vintech I will never worry about it again. I have been able to get the 1/4 mics to get a little closer to the pre amped mics with massive plugins but you can really tell the difference.

With my set up and possibly with yours there is no gain control on those 1/4 ins just that - 10 or +4. I would highly recommend that if you can get a pre amp (the nicer the better) you do.
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post #7 of 16 (permalink) Old 08-04-2007, 09:51 PM
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Re: -10 or +4?

thats because you were running the wrong impedance

you need to plug the xlr into a direct box, and take the 1/4 out of that.



and you do realize because those inputs on your board were LINE level and not MIC level
you had no preamp
Im surprised even at the loud volume of drums you were able to get a good enough level out of them.

The only time I can get away with running a mic at line level into a mixer
is out in the field when i have to record gunshots or race cars close up.

Maybe im misreading.
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post #8 of 16 (permalink) Old 08-04-2007, 10:33 PM
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Re: -10 or +4?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rip View Post
thats because you were running the wrong impedance

you need to plug the xlr into a direct box, and take the 1/4 out of that.



and you do realize because those inputs on your board were LINE level and not MIC level
you had no preamp
Im surprised even at the loud volume of drums you were able to get a good enough level out of them.

The only time I can get away with running a mic at line level into a mixer
is out in the field when i have to record gunshots or race cars close up.

Maybe im misreading.
Yep, I know its all screwed up but remember I said it was temporary and believe it or not it works (sort of). Yes, pre amps are a definite necessity and I can't believe that it works (sort of) but seeing that I'm only about a month away from the Vintech 473 I really do not want to go get 4 D.I. boxes. Besides I really am just goofing off right now anyway.

Point being with out any pre amps to bring the mics to line level, let alone good ones, all it is really good for is goofing off and really unusable for anything else. Basically I was just getting impatient to use my new mics and for $40 worth of adapters I figured why not, I'm the only one who will hear it anyway.

The main reason I even told the story is to reinforce the fact that Rich needs a pre (did I mention I really dig the Vintech?)

Last edited by smurfdaddydog; 08-05-2007 at 12:52 AM.
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post #9 of 16 (permalink) Old 08-05-2007, 08:48 AM
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Re: -10 or +4?

Have you got to try out that vintech?

Im a little bit out of the loop with them, but a little less than
10 years ago they were making a neve 1272 box.
People didnt seem to like it compared to a few others out there making the same kind of thing.
Thats a great price for 4 channels of 1073 though. IF
it sounds like a 1073.

I own some brent averill stuff.
http://www.brentaverill.com/index.asp

but that price of the unit you mentioned is tough to beat.
If i was still in the market, i might have to do some research on that thing.

If you end up getting it, i demand a full report
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post #10 of 16 (permalink) Old 08-05-2007, 09:33 AM
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Re: -10 or +4?

I've messed with it a little but only enough to know I must have one! I'll let you know what I think later like after I get to mess with it for a month or so.

I'm hoping to have all my inputs set up with great (not so expensive) pre amps by the end of the year. Probably won't happen until march of next but I'm looking to get the ADL 600, UA 2-610, and a Red 1. Woo, spendy, but I have no wife or kids (yet) and I'm 37 with a good job so I seem to have the cash.

Let me ask you this Rip, do you have any experiance with the Royer ribbon mics? I would really like to know if they're really all they claim to be.

Last edited by smurfdaddydog; 08-05-2007 at 10:47 AM.
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post #11 of 16 (permalink) Old 08-05-2007, 10:52 AM
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Re: -10 or +4?

Sorry I dont.
If i recall correctly, at least back in the day, they weren't terribly expensive
(under a grand??) ribbons are great for certain things but being such a specialty mic that ya cant pull out for more than a few different things
I could never justify the $. Ribbons are VERY fragile. But i believe the royers are pretty durable compared to others.

spend the money on a old used urei 1176 or an LA-4 to get that compression type sound from a ribbon (using a reg condenser).and i bet you use the urei stuff a lot more freq.
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post #12 of 16 (permalink) Old 08-05-2007, 01:27 PM
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Re: -10 or +4?

I'm contemplating a pair of R-122s, they're like $1600 a piece new. I haven't used them but I've listened to some stuff recorded with them in my room and really dug the sound (in certain apps).

I know thats some bucks but I figure its time to get the gear I want before I retire and become a greeter at wal-mart (inside industry joke) or get a paper rout or something.
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post #13 of 16 (permalink) Old 08-05-2007, 03:42 PM
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Re: -10 or +4?

damn for 1600 a piece I hope you already have some top notch condensers (small and large)

I have 2 schoeps cmc6/mk41's
they were $1500 each
but holy cow..the sound out of them is just simply imcredible.
So natural and smooth you'd think it was a human ear.

If you have great condensers then go for the ribbons! but
first get the more useful mics

Sounds like you're putting together one heck of a nice system either way!
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post #14 of 16 (permalink) Old 08-05-2007, 05:34 PM
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Re: -10 or +4?

Got a pair of km 184s and I'm planing on a pair of C414 B-Xl IIs. After that I pretty much plan on getting just one of many large diaphragm condensers. like 1 ELUX 251,1 MA-200, perhaps a thing or two by Blue, and oh yes, I just can't decide between just one or a pair of U 87s (probably get the pair). How about those earthworks mics? They claim high def audio but I don't know, you got any experience with them?

In my current job when we have down time while other guys are reading maxim I'm reading audio catalogs and tech manuals. I can't wait to quit and hopefully pay what meager bills I have left with my studio and some local gigs and teaching. I'm a few years off so wish me luck.

By the way Rip, what do you run? Nuendo, Cuebase? Something else? Just curious to discus the benefits and pitfalls of something other than Pro Tools. Especially from a guy that has lots of experience. Perhaps that should be a different thread.
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post #15 of 16 (permalink) Old 08-14-2007, 07:10 PM
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Re: -10 or +4?

man i want smurfdaddydog money

I use Nuendo.
Biggest pitfall is compatability between studios.

Thats kinda why protools rules the world.
They got in the game early..
companies adopted it, people needed compatibility between places..

And since then you're kinda expected to have PT.

Once again not the best product winning in the market place.

Take Betamax for example
VHS wiped it out..and was vastly less superior
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