I can't hear my 1960a cabinet. - Jemsite
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post #1 of 16 (permalink) Old 08-29-2005, 10:16 AM Thread Starter
 
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I can't hear my 1960a cabinet.

Finally and after years of being underpowered, I bit the bullet and got myself a nice new JCM800 100w reissue head and a 4x12 cabinet to match. I've never played through a quad before. I spend a week with it in the garage getting a sound of it that I'm happy with and yes, I'm delighted with it. I can't go past 4 on the volume otherwise my ears hurt too much.

Anyways, I went to an audition in a rather large rehearsal studio. I had it the volume on 6 and couldn't hear myself properly. I stood infront of it, beside it...still couldn't hear myself.

I got a call back and the following week, I did the same however, the keyboard player asked me to turn down because he said the volume from my amp was killing him. I took a quick poll and neither the drummer, bass player or the singer could hear me. The keyboards were set up directly across the room from my rig. Once I obliged to his request by turning down to 4 and just couldn't hear myself at all.

WTF is going on? It seems the only way I can hear myself is to sit in a yoga position infront of my cabinet. How can I and the whole band hear my new Marshall half stack?
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post #2 of 16 (permalink) Old 08-29-2005, 10:19 AM
 
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Re: I can't hear my 1960a cabinet.

Monitors. Seriously, that's the only way. Otherwise, certain members are going to just have to dael with it.
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post #3 of 16 (permalink) Old 08-29-2005, 10:28 AM
 
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Re: I can't hear my 1960a cabinet.

You have discovered one of the "features" of a 4 x 12.

From right in front of it they sound very quiet. They are usually fairly directional too. Next time you have it set up walk away from it while you are playing. You'll find that from about 8 foot away it starts to get louder and louder.

I'll bet that during your audition the cab was pointing directly at the keyboard player, and he was > 10 foot away, you were right in front of it, and the other members were either side of the direction the amp was facing. Am I right ?

4 x 12s are a pain for rehearsals unless you have plenty of room. You need to position them well away from you and the rest of the band. I spent a long time in my bands rehearsal room figuring out the best locations for all the kit, but it was worth it in the end. My amp is now on the opposite side of the room from me pointing back at me.
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post #4 of 16 (permalink) Old 08-29-2005, 11:18 AM
 
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Re: I can't hear my 1960a cabinet.

Although they sound somewhat different than 4x12's, I really like practicing with a pair of 2x12's... one right behind me (points at my shins, so I feel it more than I hear it), and one on the other side of the room facing me. Usually they can be angled in such a way that everybody in the band hears a little guitar, but not too much.

Wait, what am I saying? There's no such thing as too much... tell your keyboard player to suck it up.

--B
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post #5 of 16 (permalink) Old 08-29-2005, 11:29 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: I can't hear my 1960a cabinet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whatshisname
Monitors. Seriously, that's the only way. Otherwise, certain members are going to just have to dael with it.
That's unbelievable advise. For years, I used open back combo's. The only problem I ever had was not enough solo volume for most situations. For rhythm playing, the amp was basically flat out and couldn't reach no more. I just can't go to an audition with any amp, especially with a Marshall half stack and asked to be miked up, I'd get laughed at.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Algiman
You have discovered one of the "features" of a 4 x 12.

From right in front of it they sound very quiet. They are usually fairly directional too. Next time you have it set up walk away from it while you are playing. You'll find that from about 8 foot away it starts to get louder and louder.

I'll bet that during your audition the cab was pointing directly at the keyboard player, and he was > 10 foot away, you were right in front of it, and the other members were either side of the direction the amp was facing. Am I right ?

4 x 12s are a pain for rehearsals unless you have plenty of room. You need to position them well away from you and the rest of the band. I spent a long time in my bands rehearsal room figuring out the best locations for all the kit, but it was worth it in the end. My amp is now on the opposite side of the room from me pointing back at me.
Yep, you are right. About 3 to 4 metres away is the 'blast zone' and that's where the keyboard player was. Glad I didn't get the flat front cabinet. I suspect it would have made matters worse.

I'm not too keen setting up my amp across the other side of the room. I'm sure what you are saying works but it's just not me man. I've always had my amp close by and that's the way I'm used to it.

OK, I've been googling around and found a suggestion to make up an 3/4 open back panel to replace the closed back. Has anyone tried this with a Marshall 4x12 cabinet?
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post #6 of 16 (permalink) Old 08-29-2005, 11:42 AM
 
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Re: I can't hear my 1960a cabinet.

Well, dealing with an open back cab, and a closed back 4x12 are two different things.

A lot of guys in the seventies used to take the back off of their 4x12s. You can try the 3/4 back.

Or, otherwise... If you don't have the room, and want, to set up across the room, then the only way to deal with it IS monitors. (This doesnt necessarily mean through the PA, though. A second cabinet for mointoring yourself can help.)

There's nothing laughable about putting a halfstack through the PA. A lot of bands do just that, at rehearsals.

Last edited by whatshisname; 08-29-2005 at 11:47 AM. Reason: clarification
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post #7 of 16 (permalink) Old 08-29-2005, 11:45 AM
 
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Re: I can't hear my 1960a cabinet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beyblade

I'm not too keen setting up my amp across the other side of the room. I'm sure what you are saying works but it's just not me man. I've always had my amp close by and that's the way I'm used to it.
Close and 4x12 just don't go together. If you don't want it across the room from you, at least try to be standing a good distance in front of it.
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post #8 of 16 (permalink) Old 08-29-2005, 11:58 AM
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Re: I can't hear my 1960a cabinet.

Stick it in a corner faced toward the corner, then crank it as loud as you need

Last edited by Rich; 08-29-2005 at 12:29 PM.
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post #9 of 16 (permalink) Old 08-29-2005, 04:03 PM
 
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Re: I can't hear my 1960a cabinet.

You need to upgrade to a 200 watt Marshall Major.

If you want loads of distortion in it, try the Mercury Magnetics transformer in it so you do not waste your tubes.
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post #10 of 16 (permalink) Old 08-29-2005, 04:11 PM
 
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Re: I can't hear my 1960a cabinet.

With my 1960b 4x12, i played a show with my Peavey 5150. Had the volume on 4. It was plenty loud. I heard myself perfectly. Considering the jcm800 is a similar sounding amp, i would think that the problem might be the settings you have set up. If you don't use enough mids, or if you have digital processors in the chain, it might hurt. Also, is your amp 50w or 100w?
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post #11 of 16 (permalink) Old 08-29-2005, 05:41 PM
 
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Re: I can't hear my 1960a cabinet.

I used to have a similar problem. I'd found (with help from many sound engineers) that I was cranking too much Treble and too much volume out of my 4x12 and the reason was that when I was too close to it I couldn't really hear the top end very well, because basically the sound was rushing past my legs. Now 10 feet away it would melt your face right off but where I was standing it didn't have the cut I wanted.
So... the solution we came up with was, RAISE IT UP.
Put it up on Crates, fight cases, another 4x12 if you can afford it, whatever you have to hand and get it up at Ear level, that way you'll hear what the audience, the Sound engineer, your keyboard player are hearing.
You'll use less treble, less volume and get a better overall tone!!
Give it a try and I guarantee you'll love it!!!
Other wise you better find stages/ rehearsal rooms big enough to get your 4x12 at least 10 feet away from everybody!!!
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post #12 of 16 (permalink) Old 08-29-2005, 05:44 PM
 
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Re: I can't hear my 1960a cabinet.

P.S Be sure to let us know what solution you come up with and how you get on!!!
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post #13 of 16 (permalink) Old 08-29-2005, 06:15 PM
 
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Re: I can't hear my 1960a cabinet.

Same problem using a 4x12 cab with my Mesa Mark IV. I eventually started running a powered monitor from one of the extra Mark IV outputs (can't recall which one I used -- it has a slave and a recording out, and I always get them mixed up). Anway, that worked great. A small monitor on a stand at ear level, and I never had mix problems again. The sound guy was also very happy that I was no longer constantly fiddling with my stage volume.

I can understand why beyblade doesn't want to move his cab across the stage. I always have my head sitting on the cab (with the rack on top of the head), right next to me so I can make adjustments on the fly. But then again, it would probably save a lot of grief to figure out another layout -- either elevate the cab, or relocate the cab and elevate the head and rack on top of something else. But since the monitor thing pretty much fixed the problem, I think I'm done with that particular aggravation.
Bert
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post #14 of 16 (permalink) Old 08-30-2005, 01:26 AM Thread Starter
 
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Re: I can't hear my 1960a cabinet.

Man, I thought that moving from a combo to a half stack was forward progress. From reading your very well informed replies, it seems that I am dealing with a totally different animal now and a very temperemental one at that. I certainly went into this with both eyes closed and not expecting anything more than a perfect result.

It all makes sense to me now. Perhaps these cabinets work at their optimum when they are arranged in a wall like a stadium rock act has.

OK, I've just finished up in the garage and this is what I have done.

I picked up a sheet of 15mm MDF (same thickness as the Marshall back panel), measured it to exactly 3/4 the size of the original panel, cut it out, made the cut out for the jack plate, rewired the 4 speakers so that LEFT is now the top 2 and RIGHT is the bottom 2 and screwed it all back together.

I fired it up and everything works fine. Testing out the new configuration in a garage is not the ideal situation. The sound between the TOP speakers and the BOTTOM speakers is very different both in tone and in volume. The TOP speakers project the highs really well and I can't run the amp past 2.5 to get the same volume as I did with the original closed back config on 4.

The BOTTOM speakers are different again. Much more fatter sounding but I need to crank the amp up to 5 to get the same volume level but that's academic because the mix of frequencies are different so it's not a fair comparison.

Operating as a full quad, it is noticeably boomier in a good way. The sound does spread out more but it's hard to say just how much because it's solo in a garage. It is louder than compared to closed back form and I *think* I can hear alot of sound coming out the open back but that could be because of reflections.

The big and the only real test is going to be using it at a full band rehearsal. My theory is that using only the TOP speakers with the open back, will be like running a combo raised off the floor. I don't know for sure. Still need to experiment with but I think it has potential. Will let you know after tonight's rehearsal.

Last edited by beyblade; 08-30-2005 at 01:33 AM.
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post #15 of 16 (permalink) Old 08-30-2005, 06:15 PM
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Cool Re: I can't hear my 1960a cabinet.

HA!
Rich is right! Try it in the corner and crank it!!!!!!!!

You have an angled cab, creating sound waves that go up and down- not stright out. I'll also bet you've scooped the mids out, right?????

That means your standing bass waves can't get going until they are aways out from the cab, and the reinforcing mids aren't there at all- hence you can't hear it loud right in front of the cab but it kills 20-30 feet out in front and gets bassier the further out you are from the stage- which messes with your bass player's sound.

Us older guys are smiling because we discovered this decades ago and tried all sorts of crazy sh** like Rich's example. The 1960B (straight) cab does not do this as much- only the 1960A (angled)....and it only gets worse with higher ceilings and larger rooms! And don't forget it's worse with hard floors vs. carpeted floors. GOTTA LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

-Jemaholic
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