Is the sound on an old paf pro better?? - Jemsite
Pickups & wiring Discussion about pickup types, replacements, recomendations, switching, wiring diagrams and sustainer systems for ANY guitar, JEMs included.

 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old 08-04-2003, 01:08 PM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 11
Is the sound on an old paf pro better??

I know that sounds may be subjective,but Im still curious about some old pickups....

I own an old jem777 with a paf pro and have a smooth sound maybe someone called it "creamy."...but I wonder what's the difference between a new and an old?

......or is it a myth??
jawi88 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old 08-04-2003, 03:33 PM
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 670
I once asked the same question about Seymour Duncan pups and one of their techs told me that older pups then to have weakened magnetics, so the pull on the strings is not as strong, thus you get a smoother sound.

I'm just quoting him as best as I remember... he said something to that effect.
spacenuke is offline  
post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old 08-04-2003, 04:15 PM
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: California
Posts: 1,895
I think the real issue is have they changed. In other words, its not a question of whether old ones sound different because they've aged, but rather if we had a time machine, and took a new one back to 1987 would it sound the same? I think there is a difference and I can't prove it. I brought this up here a long time ago and there seemed to be some agreement. Rich also took some readings and the ohms resistance was different, if I remember correctly. (I guess that would prove it) If I can find the thread I'll try to post it. As a side note, I like the old ones better.
frankfalbo is offline  
post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old 08-04-2003, 04:35 PM
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: California
Posts: 1,895
frankfalbo is offline  
post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old 08-04-2003, 04:47 PM
Vendor
 
Rich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 25,708
A 2 year oldie

I don't think it shows so much they changed, I think it shows how inconsistent they are more than any intentional change on Dimarzios part
Rich is offline  
post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old 08-05-2003, 10:05 AM
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 212
the wind for all PAF pros is the same and the tone should be the same on all of them in the SAME guitar.
VOLTAGE is offline  
post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old 08-05-2003, 10:53 AM
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1,236
sheesh.

You learn something new around here everyday.
davester1234 is offline  
post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old 08-05-2003, 11:50 AM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 11
TNX~~Im new here...havent see the posts that long ago...
jawi88 is offline  
post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old 08-05-2003, 12:47 PM
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: California
Posts: 1,895
Quote:
Originally Posted by variac marshall
the wind for all PAF pros is the same and the tone should be the same on all of them in the SAME guitar.
Just looking at the measurements Rich took on four guitars disproves that. You're right in saying that Dimarzio says they have always been the same. But the reality is that their manufacturing tolerances allow for some pretty big differences. Rich's measurements ranged from 11.5k to 13k, and that was just across 4 guitars! But what I think we all agree on is that the design of the PAF Pro hasn't ever changed. There wasn't a time when they said, "hey let's improve it, and do this or that." So a brand new one has the same odds of sounding the same as one from 1987, depending on how they wound it. They would probably adamantly deny tolerances that wide, but then you'd show them the pickups and they'd have to accept it. They'd probably dismiss the extremes as "one or two out of thousands" but they'd be wrong.
frankfalbo is offline  
post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old 08-06-2003, 10:10 AM
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by frankfalbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by variac marshall
the wind for all PAF pros is the same and the tone should be the same on all of them in the SAME guitar.
Just looking at the measurements Rich took on four guitars disproves that. You're right in saying that Dimarzio says they have always been the same. But the reality is that their manufacturing tolerances allow for some pretty big differences. Rich's measurements ranged from 11.5k to 13k, and that was just across 4 guitars! But what I think we all agree on is that the design of the PAF Pro hasn't ever changed. There wasn't a time when they said, "hey let's improve it, and do this or that." So a brand new one has the same odds of sounding the same as one from 1987, depending on how they wound it. They would probably adamantly deny tolerances that wide, but then you'd show them the pickups and they'd have to accept it. They'd probably dismiss the extremes as "one or two out of thousands" but they'd be wrong.
11K and 13K for a PAF pro I have several from over the years and all of mine are in the 8.4K-8.9K range. I have never came across paf pros that were that high in resistance as those in rich's guitars?
VOLTAGE is offline  
post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old 08-06-2003, 03:43 PM
Vendor
 
Rich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 25,708
I know Dimarzio says 8.4k, maybe I'm measuring them wrong [but I think I was following directions], I'm just measuring it off a lead plugged into the output.
Rich is offline  
post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old 08-07-2003, 10:24 AM
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Belgium
Posts: 318
Guys, we are talking about coils. The resistance does'nt tell that much of a pu. More important is the impedance, because it is a coil.

I don't get dimarzio's point to give the dc-resistance. This is just my lousy opinion

Impedance is the AC-equivalent of the resistance with DC.

A pu catches the vibrations of the strings and the output of the pu is a fluctuating ac-voltage.

The only conclusion with resistance is: the higher the resistance, the more windings the pu will have or the thinner the wire is.
More windings mean higher output.
jemke is offline  
post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old 08-07-2003, 11:02 AM
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by jemke
Guys, we are talking about coils. The resistance does'nt tell that much of a pu. More important is the impedance, because it is a coil.

I don't get dimarzio's point to give the dc-resistance. This is just my lousy opinion

Impedance is the AC-equivalent of the resistance with DC.

A pu catches the vibrations of the strings and the output of the pu is a fluctuating ac-voltage.

The only conclusion with resistance is: the higher the resistance, the more windings the pu will have or the thinner the wire is.
More windings mean higher output.
yeah i agree the wolfgang set i am selling has a bridge at 14.4K and the neck one is at 16.8K but yet the bridge one is meaner than the neck one though the neck has the bigger resistance.
VOLTAGE is offline  
post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old 08-07-2003, 04:27 PM
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: California
Posts: 1,895
Although the readings Rich got aren't true to the resistance of the coils, (because he took them from the output, after the pots and switch) they do accurately show the variance, as long as he used the same ohms meter, which he did. Ohms resistance is a rough indicator of output, but magnet strength, type, wire thickness, coil/bobbin size and many other things ultimately play a big part in the output. That's why Dimarzio wants you to see the output in millivolts. Duncan doesn't really do anything unconventional, like "dual resonance coils" and an ohms reading is much more indicative of power and tonality on a traditionally designed pickup.

But the undeniable point here is that a variance in the ohms reading between two pickups that are supposed to be the same is in direct correlation to manufacturing tolerances. And why is one higher? Maybe only one of the coils was overwound, maybe both. In either case you have a difference in tone. And which of the two coils was overwound would also affect the tone. I'm not saying every pickup should be dead on, there's thousands of winds on there, but I've heard enough PAF Pros to pick up on inconsistencies. So all PAF Pro's are supposed to be the same, but you'll probably find you like some more than others. I know I do.
frankfalbo is offline  
post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old 08-09-2003, 05:47 PM
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 270
If that is truly the case it sucks. As if many of us don't go through multitudes of equipment to find a sound we like as it is. Now we probaby should buy about 4 PAF Pros and see which one of them we like better? uggh. Sounds like manufacturers need to get their act together in the quality control dept
Guitarlos2 is offline  
Reply

Tags
paf pro , paf pros , seymour duncan , seymour duncan pups

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Jemsite forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address

IMPORTANT: You will be required to activate your account so please ensure that your email address is correct.

If you do not receive your activation check your spam folder before using the CONTACT US form (at the bottom right of each page).



Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Help getting that Vai sound... ricksa82 Gear, Equipment, Recording & Off Topic 12 03-12-2014 09:53 AM
sound!! Guitarmattms Gear, Equipment, Recording & Off Topic 16 07-26-2012 08:34 PM
Want to get better sound. -Rhaab Gear, Equipment, Recording & Off Topic 1 03-08-2011 04:30 PM
Sound Clip: How do I get my JS-1000 to sound like this? DMTransmutation Ibanez JEM, UV, JS & Other Signature Models 7 03-08-2009 08:41 AM
How does Vai get his sound? JimmyJ Gear, Equipment, Recording & Off Topic 11 11-13-2004 10:11 AM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome