TZ7 and AN7 wiring. Need help... - Jemsite
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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-29-2003, 07:18 PM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
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TZ7 and AN7 wiring. Need help...

Hi!

Since a few weeks I am the proud new owner of a RG7CST. The guitar has the KJG-mod and the previous owner has put in an Air Norton7 and a Tone Zone7 in there. Some days ago I recognized that the pickups arenīt wired as shown in Kevanīs wiring scematics. The previous owner already tried to wire as shown in Kevanīs scematics, but it didnīt work.
Because I have not found a matching diagram at dimarzio.com, I decided to resolder the pickups after this diagram:

http://www.ibanez.com/wiring/wire.asp?y=2002&w=RG3120

This was the closest pickup configuaration I could find at Ibanez.com.
I really soldered EXACTLY as shown in that diagram, but now here is my problem:
Positions 1, 3 and 5 are fine, everything is okay, but in position 2 and 4, I get a loud hum, just llike from a single coil pickup! Can anybody imagine what I did wrong?
And when switching to position 4 (the two inner coils active), I believe that the Tone Zone7 is completely active, meaning both coils are working.

Iīd be very glad if someone could help me please
Thanks in advance!
Christoph_JEM is offline  
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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-30-2003, 08:56 AM
 
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the root of your problem is that DiMarzio doesn't make specific "neck" model pickups like Duncan does -- e.g. they make the Air Norton, and you can put it in the bridge or in the neck. the magnet polarities for bridge and neck humbuckers must be mirror images of each other in order to hum cancel, so if you put the AN or PAF in the neck, the magnet polarity is backwards for that position.

there's two ways around this -- you can install the neck pickup "backwards," with the screw pole pieces facing the bridge. or, you can unscrew the bottom of the pickup, CAREFULLY pop the bar magnet out, rotate on the flat face it 180 degrees, and slip it back in. this lets you install the pickup with the screw pole pieces toward the neck, in the "forwards" direction, but it also changes what color wires go to the neck or bridge coils.

the Ibanez diagram you linked to says "not reverced" next to the neck pickup, so that wiring is probably for a neck pickup installed backwards. this installation will look fine with pickups like Blaze IIs, where the two coils have the same pole screws, but it looks backwards for a pickup with one coil of screw poles and one coil of slug poles, like the AN or PAF. if your guitar's AN7 has the screw pole pieces closest to the neck, then it probably had the magnet flipped and you can't use that Ibanez wiring diagram. that makes sense with your positions 2 and 4 not being hum canceling.

and, Kevan's schematic for installing DiMarzios in the Double Edge guitars is not 100% correct. i forget exactly where the problems were that i found when installing my DiMarzios with that schematic, but i think i had to switch the phase on at least one pickup. my neck pickup did have the magnet flipped.
Scott of Actual Time is offline  
post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-30-2003, 10:55 AM Thread Starter
 
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Scott, the screw pole pieces of my Air Norton7 are facing the bridge. So do I understand it right that it is installed "backwards"? If so, I think that is my problem, because the diagram I linked to was for a "not reversed" pickup. But I donīt know what I have to do now

Btw, Iīve just checked your homepage and how you wired your RG2027X and the way you wired your TZ7 and AN7 is exactly how I want mine to be. I think Iīd also prefer the position 3 just like you did it (the two outer coils instead of both humbuckers).
As your wiring is just like the one I want, can you help me wiring my pickups? Do you maybe have a wiring diagram? Or could you tell me how Iīd have to wire each cable step by step? Iīd be very glad!
Or based in the diagram Iīve linked to, would it be necessary to change much? I mean maybe I can solve my problem by just rewiring 2 or 3 cable?!

I think Kevanīs diagram is for using the original pickups that came with the CST and Iīve heard that they are Blazeīs, or at least come very close to them (I donīt know if this is 100 % sure), so maybe this is the reason why his diagram is not 100 % correct for other pickups?!

Btw, did you do the KJG-mod? Do you have any problems with it? Iīve recognized that when I use both, the piezo and the magnetics (position 2 on 3-way toggle switch), and when I pan between mags and piezo, every second string (E, D and H) is much more quiet that the other ones! When I use piezos or mags separately, everything works fine. This only occurs when panning between both. But this is another problem. First of all I want my magnetics to be wired properly.......

So Scott, Iīd be very thankful if you could help me out! You can also eMail me if this is more comfortable to you.
Christoph_JEM is offline  
post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-30-2003, 12:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Christoph_JEM
Scott, the screw pole pieces of my Air Norton7 are facing the bridge. So do I understand it right that it is installed "backwards"? If so, I think that is my problem, because the diagram I linked to was for a "not reversed" pickup.
no, "not reversed" should mean that the magnet wasn't flipped, and that wiring diagram should work fine with your pickups. you could try reversing the phase on one of the pickups. it's easiest to do on the bridge model in that wiring scheme.

take the hot colored wire and the ground colored wire and solder them together to make a new series link. take the two colored wires that are soldered together, the series link, and split them. one of them is now the hot wire and one now goes to ground. you can figure out which is which by trial and error, or you can look at a coil diagram like at www.stewmac.com and pick the color from the old series link that comes from the same coil as the old hot wire. if all that seems like greek to you, then you might consider having a tech do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christoph_JEM
Btw, Iīve just checked your homepage and how you wired your RG2027X and the way you wired your TZ7 and AN7 is exactly how I want mine to be. I think Iīd also prefer the position 3 just like you did it (the two outer coils instead of both humbuckers).
i like that wiring scheme a lot too -- i'll e-mail you about that. it involves desoldering several of the jumpers that ibanez wires onto the OTAX switch at the factory, but you can do it with that switch and you don't need to buy another one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christoph_JEM
I think Kevanīs diagram is for using the original pickups that came with the CST and Iīve heard that they are Blazeīs, or at least come very close to them (I donīt know if this is 100 % sure), so maybe this is the reason why his diagram is not 100 % correct for other pickups?!
no, Kevan's diagram is for installing DiMarzios into any Double Edge guitar, including the Prestige ones like RG 2027 and 2020. the pickups that came in the CSTs are the DiMarzio "New 7," the same model that came in the 7620s [NOT Blaze]. kevan's diagram should work fine for you, except that i think he flipped the neck pickup magnet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christoph_JEM
Btw, did you do the KJG-mod? Do you have any problems with it? Iīve recognized that when I use both, the piezo and the magnetics (position 2 on 3-way toggle switch), and when I pan between mags and piezo, every second string (E, D and H) is much more quiet that the other ones! When I use piezos or mags separately, everything works fine.
i have not done the KJG mod yet, although i plan to soon. i don't know what the problem you are experiencing could be, other than phasing issues between the two sounds. are you running them into the same amp, where they could phase out each other?
Scott of Actual Time is offline  
post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-30-2003, 12:19 PM Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott of Actual Time
take the hot colored wire and the ground colored wire and solder them together to make a new series link. take the two colored wires that are soldered together, the series link, and split them. one of them is now the hot wire and one now goes to ground. you can figure out which is which by trial and error, or you can look at a coil diagram like at www.stewmac.com and pick the color from the old series link that comes from the same coil as the old hot wire. if all that seems like greek to you, then you might consider having a tech do it.
Okay, and what must I do with the 2 wires that I now have soldered together? Solder them to that place where the other 2 wired were?

Or should I wait until you emailed me your diagram, as this the way I also want to wire my guitar?
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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-30-2003, 01:28 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Christoph_JEM
Okay, and what must I do with the 2 wires that I now have soldered together? Solder them to that place where the other 2 wired were?
yes.
Scott of Actual Time is offline  
post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old 10-30-2003, 01:36 PM
 
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Just a sidebar, (and you should probably ignore it if everything is going to work out fine)

When coil cutting, wiring diagrams illustrate jumping the series link to ground. That kills the first coil off and leaves the second coil. But sometimes that's the wrong coil (inside vs outside). If you don't want to reverse phase, or rotate your pickups, you can have that series link jump to the HOT of that pickup instead of ground, wherever that happens to be. That gives you the alternate coil.
frankfalbo is offline  
post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-10-2004, 09:10 PM
 
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similar AN/TZ7 problem

I have a similar problem with TZ7 and AN7. On my guitar, position 1,2, and 4 are hum-less but it is 3and 5 that causes problem. I followed the wiring digram from Dimarzio exactly yet the result wasn't what I really expected. I tried "reversing" the neck position pickup to have the adjusting pole face the bridge. After that, I also had itr face the neck. It made no difference either way. AN7 is still noisy on my guitar.
philzeta is offline  
post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-11-2004, 04:01 AM
 
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First of all, Cristoph, you want to part with that CST, LET ME KNOW. That is one awesome guitar. I can't believe someone swapped out the original pups, though. From everything I've heard, they rock. (I use the AN7 and the Blaze Bridge in my 2027. Used to use the TZ7, but decided it wasn't perfect in a mahogany 7).

My 5-way switching is perfect. I (believe) that when I'm in position 4, the INSIDE coil of the neck pup, and the OUTSIDE coil of the bridge pup are the active coils. I have no hum, and the Strat "quack" sound, when using this position. Both of my pups are in standard position, ie, not flipped around, and neither are the magnets. I have the schematic around somewhere. I remember Kev's diagram wasn't exactly right. You got a nice quack sound in position 4 with it, but you also got hum.

As for the KJG mod, I have it, and yeah, the panning has some phase issues on some strings. Solved one of two ways easily

1. Have the pan set to either almost full piezo or almost full electric, OR
2. Use the output selector switch, and send the magnetic signal to one amp, and the piezo signal to another (or the board).
The Dark Wolf is offline  
post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-11-2004, 08:14 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wordwolf
My 5-way switching is perfect. I (believe) that when I'm in position 4, the INSIDE coil of the neck pup, and the OUTSIDE coil of the bridge pup are the active coils. I have no hum, and the Strat "quack" sound, when using this position. Both of my pups are in standard position, ie, not flipped around, and neither are the magnets.
you might want to check which coils you've got again -- if the pickups and magents are not rotated, then inner coil neck + outer coil bridge will not have opposite magnet polarities and will not hum cancel. so you must have something else, or a guitar well shielded from hum. with your setup you should get the exact same combinations as the coil pictures on the Ibanez website, since not rotating anything gives the same magnet polarity as rotating the pickup and rotating the magnet [the magnet gets rotated twice and ends up the same].


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wordwolf
I remember Kev's diagram wasn't exactly right. You got a nice quack sound in position 4 with it, but you also got hum.
kevan's diagram does have the neck pickup rotated, even though it doesn't say so -- i figured that out by tracing the wire colors. if you used that diagram without rotating your pickup, then you would not get the right neck + bridge combinations. kevan's diagram must also assume the neck pickup magnet was rotated as well, or the neck + bridge combinations with the rotated neck pickup wouldn't hum cancel either.
Scott of Actual Time is offline  
post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-11-2004, 12:35 PM Thread Starter
 
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@ Wordwolf: Sorry Dude, I must disappoint you! My CST will stay with me for quite some time
Concerning the original pickups, I donīt know why the previous owner changed them. He told me that they didnīt sound that good and in his taste, the change to the TZ/AN-combo was an upgrade. Unfortunately he sold the original ones
Does anyone know which DiMarzio pickups do come close or maybe even are the same ones as those "Custom 7s"? Was there any other 7-string guitar sold with those pickups? I always thought that they are the same as in the RG 8527, but it does not seam so...
Wordwolf, do I understand it right that you also have that problem that when both, the piezos and the magnetics are selected together, every second string is more quiet/has less output than the other ones?

@philzeta: I read your post at work and wanted to suggest that you contact Scott. Now I am at home and for your luck Scott already replied :P
I also had problems getting those pickup-combinations I wanted and Scott helped me very much! Once again, lots of thanks, Scott!
Just do what Scott says! When it comes to pickups and wiring, heīs the man!
Btw, the KJG-wiring also didnīt work for me. I think the reason is what Scott mentioned in his previous post. But I canīt remeber correctly. I was soldering 2 or 3 nights and in the end I couldnīt remember what I finally did. But now it works...
Christoph_JEM is offline  
post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-11-2004, 01:33 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Christoph_JEM
Does anyone know which DiMarzio pickups do come close or maybe even are the same ones as those "Custom 7s"? Was there any other 7-string guitar sold with those pickups? I always thought that they are the same as in the RG 8527, but it does not seam so...
DiMarzio techs have compared these pickups, also called the "New 7" or "B2 (bridge) / N2 (neck)," to the Super Distortion bridge and the Super 2 neck. they're really high output, and many people find that a medium-high output pickup like the TZ7 gives a less harsh sound, even with lots of amp gain. i must say that i totally agree.

these New 7 pickups were stock in many Ibanez guitars, including the RG762X, the 7CST and the 7CT. it looks to me from pics like they are also in the RG8527. i don't think Ibanez has used the Blaze in any of the late 90s to present 7 strings other than the UV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christoph_JEM
I also had problems getting those pickup-combinations I wanted and Scott helped me very much! Once again, lots of thanks, Scott!
Just do what Scott says! When it comes to pickups and wiring, heīs the man!
thanks! glad to help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christoph_JEM
Btw, the KJG-wiring also didnīt work for me. I was soldering 2 or 3 nights and in the end I couldnīt remember what I finally did. But now it works...
one thing to check for, anyone trying this, is that you have the DPDT on/on/on switch in the right orientation. this three-position switch, unlike all other DPDT mini-toggles, is not the same if you rotate it accidentally. it mught be pointing in the right direction to get things to work.
Scott of Actual Time is offline  
post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-11-2004, 03:54 PM
 
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Scott, it's definitely the INSIDE neck coil and OUTSIDE bridge coil in position 4. No hum... adjustable polepieces are towards the headstock on the neck pup.

When I first got it back from the tech who installed the AN7/TZ7 set, position 4 had hum. He didn't move the pickups or mess with the magnets. I have the schematic around somewhere. He corrected what was wrong on Kev's diagram. Your guess is as good as mine, as you know a bit more about this than me.

I installed the Blaze myself, but didn't pay attention to the neck pickup leads.

Cristoph, yes, when in MONO output mode, and panning, I get those same out-of-phase(String volume differences) issues, but again, when you switch to stereo mode (like I am in 99.9% of the time. I have two seperate processors for my magnetic/piezo outputs) those issues dissappear, OR when you pan 90% or more to all magnetic/all piezo. I use this occasionally (About 90% mag/10%piezo) for a neat psuedo archtop jazz type sound.
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post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-11-2004, 05:17 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wordwolf
...adjustable polepieces are towards the headstock on the neck pup.
ah, then you did turn the pickup around, with the output wire up at the top of the pickup cavity. the coil combinations you're getting make sense for a rotated pickup without a flipped magnet, but you threw me off when you said your pickup was not rotated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wordwolf
When I first got it back from the tech who installed the AN7/TZ7 set, position 4 had hum.
it sure would -- because that diagram is expecting the magnet to be flipped. you can't get the stock Ibanez "Special 5-way" combinations to be hum free with a rotated neck pickup [screw poles closest to the headstock] unless the magnet is flipped.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wordwolf
He didn't move the pickups or mess with the magnets. I have the schematic around somewhere. He corrected what was wrong on Kev's diagram. Your guess is as good as mine, as you know a bit more about this than me.
from what you say about inside + outside coils, it sounds like your tech just picked a different coil combination that would be hum canceling, given the magnet polarities you have. that's not a mistake on kevan's diagram, it's just changing the wiring to fit your different situation. although kevan could save folks a lot of hassle if he'd add a note saying what neck pickup conditions his diagram assumes.

i personally like the 2 inner coils and the 2 outer coils combinations because they're more different from each other, whereas inner + outer is not so drastically different. but if what you've got works for you, go with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wordwolf
I installed the Blaze myself, but didn't pay attention to the neck pickup leads.
bridge humbuckers are easy -- this whole problem comes from Dimarzio not making separate bridge and neck models of many of their humbuckers that have screw and slug pole pieces, like the TZ7, AN7, and PAF7. some of the others, like the Blaze, have both coils with identical pole pieces so you can rotate the pickup any way you want to get the right magnet polarities without it looking "backwards."

this only becomes an issue in two humbucker guitars with coil cut combinations -- on a JEM, the factory polarities will already hum cancel with the middle single coil, and on a Les Paul there are no coil cut combinations.
Scott of Actual Time is offline  
post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-14-2004, 03:48 AM
 
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AN7&TZ7

The tech from Dimarzio sent me a new 2003 diagram. I followed it carefully and made all necessary corrections. Voila. They are truly humbucking now. I still hear some buzz though.
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