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Ibanez JEM, UV, JS & Other Signature Models For discussion of Ibanez JEM, Universe and JS (Satriani) guitars only.

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09-24-2010 11:25 AM
RedTiger
Re: JEM/UV Rant

Quote:
Originally Posted by Takin' a Ride View Post
In the US, the market for high-end Ibanez guitars is pretty niche. The only reason it may seem that there's high demand is due to the sheer number of people in this country. Other than Rich, the only dealers I'm aware of who sell these guitars are the ones that post Buy It Now auctions on e-bay at inflated prices.

These people aren't the same as Rich. With Rich, you know you're going to get 100% honesty, full disclosure and access to value add services like his setups. The online "dealers" are nothing more than dirtbag speculators. Typically, they get their instruments from auctions and then try and simply flip them for a profit, so nothing changed about the guitar that you're buying other than the price went through the roof. Examples:

http://www.jemsite.com/forums/f31/fs...on-105055.html

I tried to work out a deal with this guy but ultimately it fell through. As you can see, he dropped his price down to $1575 shipped on here before going to e-bay. It sold on there for somewhere around $1600 on a Best Offer and now lo and behold, the exact same guitar is listed by a "dealer" for $2700. No value was added, the guitar is just held by a speculator now.

http://www.jemsite.com/forums/f31/ib...nt-100847.html

I had unfortunately just bought another guitar, or I would have been all over this. He eventually sold it on e-bay to a dealer for his $1700 price. Guitar has been for sale since March, first at $2597 and later dropped to the current price of $2449. Again, no value was added and the current owner is not giving "Rich Harris" level disclosure about the instrument so I still don't really know what I would be buying, don't have the option to get a pro setup, etc.

To sell above market price, you need to have a relationship built with your customers and you need to be adding value that goes beyond the product you're selling. Rich has that. If Rich and I had identical used guitars and we were both selling them, chances are he could get more for his than I could get for mine. The one I'm selling would more closely reflect the actual market price.
Regarding those speculators -- is anyone buying at those prices? In my example of the local dealer, they're checking both those speculators and what deals actually closed and going from there. They aren't going to assume that a 777DY is worth $2700 because of 10 separate listings that were completed before close.

Point being, I see a lot of those speculators on flea bay but very few closed deals.
09-24-2010 11:20 AM
RedTiger
Re: JEM/UV Rant

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcord View Post
You guys are taking what I'm saying backward.

Or maybe I'm just using the wrong terminology. I view "market price" to be the average going rate for a guitar. Let's say a DY. From prices on this board, I've seen several in the past few months sell for between $1200 - $1600. I'd consider that to be a fair market value, because it represents the actual prices the guitars seem to be selling for. Of course, there are going to be exceptions. I wouldn't consider that to be a "wholesale price," because by that logic, anyone who recently purchased a DY at less than $2500 scored an incredible deal.

Since those guitars generally sell in the $1400 range, I would assume "wholesale" to be somewhere around $1000. I wouldn't think a DY listed at nearly $3k would be a "wholesale" price, no matter if it's listed on the 'bay or on IbanezRules or in my local pawnshop.

What you're suggesting is that I bought my DY at "wholesale", and now I'm completely justified in listing it for $2500, because that's somehow the "market" price. I disagree.

As another example, let's go with a brand new JEM7VWH. These guitars' "retail prices" are around $3500, but the "market price" for a new one is somewhere in the range of $2600. That to me implies that "wholesale" is somewhere around $1800-ish. I wouldn't suggest that anyone who bought one at Musician's Friend prices got a "killer" deal, or that they got one at "near wholesale" price. They got one at the average market price. The guy selling one at $3500 is going to have a harder time, because he's priced himself out of the "market."
I wanted to bump this post because I have something to add regarding what dcord has said.

First of all, I agree with him here. This is exactly how I interpret "market" and "wholesale" price. Market price is what the market will bear. If the price is too high, it should *in theory* drop until it reaches a point where people are buying. "Retail" price may or not be market price. If no one's buying, it will probably eventually be at market price in the form of clearance sales.

Wholesale to me means what GC, MF, and Mr. Rich Harris pay Hoshino for a guitar. It is obviously and understandably less than retail price. GC, MF, and Rich are in it to actually make money, not break even.

About eee-bay not being market price -- dealers in used and collectible goods do indeed use eee-bay as guide for pricing. In fact, in one place I've sold to in SA TX, when you go in and want to sell something, after a general appraisal the next thing they do is check the price on the bay for completed auctions and then reduce their payment offer to you accordingly so they can flip the gear at a profit.

Collectible cards is another example. No one uses those price guides in magazines. They check flea bay and see what people are pricing/buying them at and price/buy accordingly.
09-19-2010 10:48 AM
Takin' a Ride
Re: JEM/UV Rant

Quote:
Originally Posted by nickcoumbe View Post
I don't know about the US but in the UK a lot of shops carry second hand gear, including high end Ibanez guitars. **** is really not the only market place.
In the US, the market for high-end Ibanez guitars is pretty niche. The only reason it may seem that there's high demand is due to the sheer number of people in this country. Other than Rich, the only dealers I'm aware of who sell these guitars are the ones that post Buy It Now auctions on e-bay at inflated prices.

These people aren't the same as Rich. With Rich, you know you're going to get 100% honesty, full disclosure and access to value add services like his setups. The online "dealers" are nothing more than dirtbag speculators. Typically, they get their instruments from auctions and then try and simply flip them for a profit, so nothing changed about the guitar that you're buying other than the price went through the roof. Examples:

http://www.jemsite.com/forums/f31/fs...on-105055.html

I tried to work out a deal with this guy but ultimately it fell through. As you can see, he dropped his price down to $1575 shipped on here before going to e-bay. It sold on there for somewhere around $1600 on a Best Offer and now lo and behold, the exact same guitar is listed by a "dealer" for $2700. No value was added, the guitar is just held by a speculator now.

http://www.jemsite.com/forums/f31/ib...nt-100847.html

I had unfortunately just bought another guitar, or I would have been all over this. He eventually sold it on e-bay to a dealer for his $1700 price. Guitar has been for sale since March, first at $2597 and later dropped to the current price of $2449. Again, no value was added and the current owner is not giving "Rich Harris" level disclosure about the instrument so I still don't really know what I would be buying, don't have the option to get a pro setup, etc.

To sell above market price, you need to have a relationship built with your customers and you need to be adding value that goes beyond the product you're selling. Rich has that. If Rich and I had identical used guitars and we were both selling them, chances are he could get more for his than I could get for mine. The one I'm selling would more closely reflect the actual market price.
09-18-2010 08:26 PM
nickcoumbe
Re: JEM/UV Rant

Quote:
Originally Posted by Takin' a Ride View Post
Both sides have merit, but I'm going to side with dcord on this one. The reason why is that auction sites are pretty much the only marketplace for used guitars. I'm of course discounting things like pawn shops where you would never know what they have unless you physically step in the store. I'm talking about sales that are available to all buyers in all locations.

Rich Harris is an exception, not a rule, when it comes to the market for used Ibanez guitars. He can sell above market price because of a reputation that he's built within his particular niche market. I would classify him more as a boutique within the marketplace.

Market price is always determined by the price things actually sell at. Regardless of what you may think of the tactics and customers of an auction site, those are the only real transactions of record. One other thing I find funny is that guitars typically sell for less in the classified section of this site than they do at auction.
I don't know about the US but in the UK a lot of shops carry second hand gear, including high end Ibanez guitars. **** is really not the only market place.

Personally I feel that a lot of items sold on e-bay go for less than they could, I think that we have all picked some bargains from time to time. A lot of items are over priced with high starting bids to combat that, and subsequently don't sell.

Remember that the bay is an auction site. If you take the motor trade as an example you can always buy cheaper cars at auction, that doesn't mean that you have paid the true market price. Just because one (all be it significant) source is cheaper doesn't mean that reflects the market.

I have an example:

A few years ago I picked up a Charvel 550xl for something like 250 from the bay. It is a Japanese made 1990 thruneck with schaller floyd etc. It is pretty much the same build quality as a SL1. The guitar is and was worth more than 250, probably not twice that amount, but certainly more.
09-18-2010 07:36 PM
NSR
Re: JEM/UV Rant

Quote:
Originally Posted by Takin' a Ride View Post
Both sides have merit, but I'm going to side with dcord on this one. The reason why is that auction sites are pretty much the only marketplace for used guitars. I'm of course discounting things like pawn shops where you would never know what they have unless you physically step in the store. I'm talking about sales that are available to all buyers in all locations.

Rich Harris is an exception, not a rule, when it comes to the market for used Ibanez guitars. He can sell above market price because of a reputation that he's built within his particular niche market. I would classify him more as a boutique within the marketplace.

Market price is always determined by the price things actually sell at. Regardless of what you may think of the tactics and customers of an auction site, those are the only real transactions of record. One other thing I find funny is that guitars typically sell for less in the classified section of this site than they do at auction.
+1

I totally agree that Rich is an exception in that he's one of the very few advertisers that I know that makes a serious effort of disclosing the bad, no matter "how hard" it is to photograph. I know it can be difficult, but in my book it's a must. Additionally, you (should) know that whatever you buy from Rich will be the serviced to the utmost standard. I imagine this would also include his apparent lousy taste in boots

Where I draw the line, however, is inline with the OP. When a POS is advertised way way way above than what it's worth and misrepresented with respect to the condition. If it's dirty, clean it and don't tell us how easy it is to clean, if it shows minimal signs of wear, show us how you come to that conclusion.

I have made a lot of purchases recently and it really is a mine field trying to find the middle ground of what you're willing to pay and expect to receive -v- the condition of the potiential purchase and a totally exagerated price. I've been nibbled a couple of times (not bitten, thankfully) and I've either resolved financially or I've sold on. I never try to rip people off, either in purchasing or in selling. But when I have sold on, I have always advertised how I would want an advertisement to appeal to me - with the utmost honesty and priced accordingly. In doing so when I've advertised, I've been fortunate to make a fast small profit. However, I'm not here to make a quick buck, but rather to seek to obtain and discuss quality instruments for my own satisfaction.
09-18-2010 12:43 PM
Takin' a Ride
Re: JEM/UV Rant

Both sides have merit, but I'm going to side with dcord on this one. The reason why is that auction sites are pretty much the only marketplace for used guitars. I'm of course discounting things like pawn shops where you would never know what they have unless you physically step in the store. I'm talking about sales that are available to all buyers in all locations.

Rich Harris is an exception, not a rule, when it comes to the market for used Ibanez guitars. He can sell above market price because of a reputation that he's built within his particular niche market. I would classify him more as a boutique within the marketplace.

Market price is always determined by the price things actually sell at. Regardless of what you may think of the tactics and customers of an auction site, those are the only real transactions of record. One other thing I find funny is that guitars typically sell for less in the classified section of this site than they do at auction.
09-18-2010 11:45 AM
dcord
Re: JEM/UV Rant

You guys are taking what I'm saying backward.

Or maybe I'm just using the wrong terminology. I view "market price" to be the average going rate for a guitar. Let's say a DY. From prices on this board, I've seen several in the past few months sell for between $1200 - $1600. I'd consider that to be a fair market value, because it represents the actual prices the guitars seem to be selling for. Of course, there are going to be exceptions. I wouldn't consider that to be a "wholesale price," because by that logic, anyone who recently purchased a DY at less than $2500 scored an incredible deal.

Since those guitars generally sell in the $1400 range, I would assume "wholesale" to be somewhere around $1000. I wouldn't think a DY listed at nearly $3k would be a "wholesale" price, no matter if it's listed on the 'bay or on IbanezRules or in my local pawnshop.

What you're suggesting is that I bought my DY at "wholesale", and now I'm completely justified in listing it for $2500, because that's somehow the "market" price. I disagree.

As another example, let's go with a brand new JEM7VWH. These guitars' "retail prices" are around $3500, but the "market price" for a new one is somewhere in the range of $2600. That to me implies that "wholesale" is somewhere around $1800-ish. I wouldn't suggest that anyone who bought one at Musician's Friend prices got a "killer" deal, or that they got one at "near wholesale" price. They got one at the average market price. The guy selling one at $3500 is going to have a harder time, because he's priced himself out of the "market."
09-18-2010 01:09 AM
nickcoumbe
Re: JEM/UV Rant

I agree with Rich. The value of a guitar is not necessarily what they are going for on e-bay at any given moment. I think that most people shop on the auction sites with the attitude that they are looking for a great deal, possibly getting something below market value. I view the bay as a bit of a gamble as you really don't know what you are going to get. I wouldn't buy a guitar unless I knew I was paying a low enough price to off set the risk to some degree, or I could afford to lose the money.

I tend to think that the market value of a guitar is closer to the price you see with the majority of dealers. Funnily enough I was chatting with the owner of a guitar shop a while back and asking if he was going to do more online. He was pretty clear that almost all the enquiries they got from online customers were pretty much people trying to get guitars for less than what is considered the actual worth, and therfore a bit of a waste of time. These guys aren't expensive in the first place either.
09-18-2010 12:43 AM
Rich
Re: JEM/UV Rant

What you're saying is only the guitars sold represent market price, which are usually the start cheap and bid, or cheap enough, they get a single bid, or a buy it now. Which still does not represent market price, it's still just represents the ones willing to buy that model, in that listing/sale period, that ended at that price [that buyer may have been willing to pay far more than it sold for, but the underbidders didn't push him], from somebody they don't know, and probably has very little trust of. This is typically, in any market, average wholesale price.

I once bought a piece for $16k that I had bid $24k. I know retail from a top dealer would have been over $40k. The price the top dealer can get is considered market price, not what it trades for at the local flea market, regional auction, some online auction, or what sells within a week on a forum classified.
09-17-2010 06:10 PM
dcord
Re: JEM/UV Rant

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich View Post
You guys are all making the incorrect assumption that e-bay represents market price. It does not. It represents wholesale price, like every other auction. You can pay market price at auction, but that is not the norm. The norm is it sells for whatever the buyers looking that particular listing period are willing to pay for an item in undetermined condition from an unknown seller.
Nope, I'm not. I'm suggesting that real sales indicates market price, as opposed to the price an item is listed at.

What I'm saying is that it seems a lot of people on the 'bay, or even in these and other forums seem to assume e-bay represents market price.

How exactly does an LNG listed at $3995 represent wholesale price? Or an RB listed at $2700?
09-17-2010 01:55 PM
Fun111
Re: JEM/UV Rant

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich View Post
You guys are all making the incorrect assumption that e-bay represents market price. It does not. It represents wholesale price, like every other auction. You can pay market price at auction, but that is not the norm. The norm is it sells for whatever the buyers looking that particular listing period are willing to pay for an item in undetermined condition from an unknown seller.
This response actually made me feel better...
09-17-2010 12:44 PM
Rich
Re: JEM/UV Rant

You guys are all making the incorrect assumption that e-bay represents market price. It does not. It represents wholesale price, like every other auction. You can pay market price at auction, but that is not the norm. The norm is it sells for whatever the buyers looking that particular listing period are willing to pay for an item in undetermined condition from an unknown seller.
09-17-2010 12:38 PM
dcord
Re: JEM/UV Rant

The problem is, when they price so far above market, you can't even bargain to try and get it down to market without looking like an a-hole.

And I'm not talking about trying to score a killer deal here, I'm talking about trying to buy a guitar for about what the market says it's worth. When someone lists a guitar at $1k over market, you can't even begin to talk them down because you'll just offend them.

Then it just creates a circle in which other people see the guitar listed at $2500, so they list theirs at $2500, and so on. Then we have a ton of guitars for sale that just don't move. Ever.
09-17-2010 11:09 AM
RedTiger
Re: JEM/UV Rant

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcord View Post

It's frustrating to say the least when you see guitars constantly listed for FAR more than you've seen them go for recently. e-Bay is a great example - it's frustrating to be in the market for a given guitar that you know to be worth $1200-$1500, then see the same guitar listed at $2500. And it stays on the market FOREVER.
I find this hilarious in particular. Awesome! You're Jem is listed for $2500 and no one's buying. Since it was listed two have sold for $1500. Two people have $1500 while you have nothing. I suppose if you don't really need the money, you have nothing to lose.

That said, if I were to ever sell my 777DY, I'd totally list it as much as I possibly could get away and hope for a rich uninformed buyer who doesn't care to do any research to come along and buy.
09-16-2010 04:16 PM
Takin' a Ride
Re: JEM/UV Rant

Quote:
Originally Posted by NSR View Post
One of my pet hates is seeing content such as 'maple board shows some very light dirt (easy to clean)' in adverts. Really, if it's easy to clean then clean the damn thing and have an even cleaner guitar to sell, rather than tell everyone how easy it is to clean!
I laughed here because I know the exact guitar you're talking about.
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