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Thread: Flo's string retaining bar Reply to Thread
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  Topic Review (Newest First)
09-11-2002 09:05 PM
dcord
Quote:
Originally Posted by sniperfrommars1
Umm hello. My original statement was that the height of the retainer bar effected tension. Which is the point Ive been trying to prove THE WHOLE TIME. End of story bub. Read your own post
Whatever. I'm done with this one too. Pat yourself on the back, you've proven that you're far more anally retentive than anyone on this board has ever been. Apparently you're a ton smarter than us idiots as well.
09-11-2002 02:13 PM
mike777 [quote="7 Dying Trees"]Does it matter? Really? Does anyone care that an .00001% increase in tension may occur? Personally, I care about my axe staying in tune and it sounding good.


Yep. I agree. I care about understanding how to take care of my equipment and how things do the things they do. But if one considers the amount of time and energy spent on this analasys, one could've taken advantage of more time to actually PLAY the guitar.

Mike 777 Haug
09-11-2002 11:19 AM
7 Dying Trees Good. My engineering physics has not been in vain
09-11-2002 06:49 AM
dex Not really tension but I know what you mean.

It's not tension because to have 25.5" of string vibrating 330 times a second (high E at concert pitch), you'll have to have the same tension on it regardless of anything behind the nut.

The change in stiffness that is felt is caused by the fact that now there's more string to stretch.
It's not caused by less tension or anything like that.

You can't have less tension and still be tuned at concert pitch.
Less tension = lower tone
increased tension = higher tone

That's why when you bend, the tone goes sharp and when you whamy it goes flat.

Otherwise you are not too naive and we've all been trying to say the same thing, but the sniper refuses to understand.
09-11-2002 05:23 AM
7 Dying Trees Nut not locked:
Retainer bar makes a difference in tension

Nut Locked:
It doesn't

Simple, or am I being too naieve about this one for words
09-11-2002 02:16 AM
sniperfrommars1 Umm hello. My original statement was that the height of the retainer bar effected tension. Which is the point Ive been trying to prove THE WHOLE TIME. End of story bub. Read your own post
09-10-2002 06:54 PM
dcord
Quote:
Originally Posted by sniperfrommars1
Well of course after one locks the nut there is not change, but the tension created by the angle and length of the string is still there. How many times have you tuned with a strobe, locked the nut and still been in perfect tune? I have several times. The tension didnt change otherwise it would be out of TUNE.
This is exactly what was said. MY post was that IF you had RAISED THE RETAINING BAR (as you said you had), then locked the nut, it would go out of tune.

Jesus, does anyone read before posting?

Your last line is exactly what we've been telling you all along, with you arguing with us that *we're* wrong somehow.
09-10-2002 02:47 AM
sniperfrommars1 Well of course after one locks the nut there is not change, but the tension created by the angle and length of the string is still there. How many times have you tuned with a strobe, locked the nut and still been in perfect tune? I have several times. The tension didnt change otherwise it would be out of TUNE.
09-09-2002 10:49 AM
7 Dying Trees Cool I am easily confused
09-09-2002 10:30 AM
dex I was just trying to explain why the guy migh be confused.
With the nut unlocked and the retainer high up he feels the difference, and then thinks it's still there after the nut is locked all the way down.
Clearly the difference after the nut is locked is percieved, but now when he reads my post he'll realise why (hopefully ).

Otherwise I'm with you all the way.
Once the nut is locked nothing behind the nut has any effect on the string elasticity.
09-09-2002 10:07 AM
7 Dying Trees Yes, there is a difference there, but i thought this whole thing was about wether there was a difference with the nut locked.
09-09-2002 09:02 AM
dex Yeah, dude, but imagine this for a second.

The string has 5% elasticity.
That means that with the nut locked the most you can stretch the string before it breaks is 25.5"x0.05=1.275"

Now unlock the nut and the 5% elasticity alows you to stretch 30"x0.05 before it breaks and that is 1.5".
So effectively it will be easyer to bend the string a tone high if the nut is unlocked and there is nothing in the path of the string to the tuning machine.
That will only be possible if the groves in the nut are well lubricated, so the string can easily slide forward and backward.

But again Darren said it ages ago, so no point in repeating what he said.
09-09-2002 07:42 AM
7 Dying Trees Does it matter? Really? Does anyone care that an .00001% increase in tension may occur? Personally, I care about my axe staying in tune and it sounding good.

As for physics, pitch is derived from the length of the string, the tension on it and the thickness. The only other things it relies on is temperature (for the denisty), That's it. Nothing else. Really, physics isn't going to change it's view on this one...

Now, as for the percieved tension, try this: Lock your nut, then detune the tuning pegs. The whole system should stay in tune. If your theory about the string retainer is that more tension behind the locking nut changes feel is true, then detuning it will have the same effect.

Also not: When anyone refers to string length they refer to the part of the string that vibtrates, not the length of the string from the bridge to the tuning peg ie: your scale length isn't going to magically change if you lock/unlock your nut...

This has to be one of the must anally retentative discussions I have ever seen...
09-09-2002 06:50 AM
dex And I just raelized that Darren's secon post here said the same thing in not as many words.
09-09-2002 06:47 AM
dex Guys I finally realised what the dude is trying to say.

If you have your retainer bar very high up and the nut unlocked, it's easyer to bend, because when you bend you are stretching the string that's on the fretboard and the bit of string behind the nut.
Effectively you have close to 30" of string (high E) that is easyer to stretch than the 25.5" that is on the guitar.

Now if you have the retaining bar very low down, the efective slack string now is not close to 30", but close to 27" and the reduced length you can strech has a small effect on the strechability(not sure if that's a word ) of the string.

Bottom line is when you lock the nut the string is 25.5" long and to have it at concert pitch (high E = 330Hz) the string tension will be constant (for the same brand/gauge ).
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