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Thread: did a whole bunch of forums just get merged? Reply to Thread
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03-23-2018 09:06 AM
jemsite
Re: did a whole bunch of forums just get merged?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Takin' a Ride View Post
I'm certain who VS is? Based on context I'm assuming the Jemsite is owned by some entity that owns a whole bunch of forums?.
Yes VerticalScope as announced a while back here: http://www.jemsite.com/forums/f10/an...rs-138097.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by Takin' a Ride View Post
So I wasn't looking at this as a sort of slippery slope that could infect a whole range of communities. I was treating Jemsite as a discrete entity. The way I approached it that it costs a certain amount of money per month to host the forum and allocate a certain amount of bandwidth on the servers. As traffic to the forum drops, the revenue it generates drops. How low does it need to drop before the site is in the red? And if the site is in the red, what is the motivation to keep it going? I think we're all in agreement that traffic has really dropped off here. But what seems more important than that is, is the forum attracting and retaining new members? Or is it basically like the Elks Lodge with a few old dudes sitting around complaining about stuff? My worry is that it's much more of the latter, which should be extremely concerning.
This nails it in the context of someone/group owning one specific site and trying to grow & make it viable & profitable/sustainable (not a hobby/write-off). I am not speaking for anyone but myself here. But my assumption is there are many metrics (goog analytics & more) measured against hundreds of communities by VS. As a result "new posts" is but just one and it's never been vocalized as something to prioritize or consider. Niche guitar communities are tricky to monetize as the demographic is limiting. In bulk/collectively like with VS it works via the collective ad impressions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Takin' a Ride View Post
Back to FB, what I see there is that people try to use it like a forum but it isn't really good at that. So what I'm asking is would it bear the most fruit to focus on improving the forum in the areas where FB groups are lacking? My assumption is that focusing on improving the discussion ultimately won't work. It will just be the same old guys who were fine with the old format anyway.

So returning to your original question about why would the owners want to point outside their ecosystem, I think the answer is that you have to go where your customers are. You would be betting that any loss you'd have from that would be offset by traffic coming back for the compelling features you're offering.
Ok i'm still following but don't want to read into your answer. Can you explain a little clearer "go where your customers are"? Thx.
03-23-2018 08:10 AM
Takin' a Ride
Re: did a whole bunch of forums just get merged?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jemsite View Post
But I honestly ask why would VS want to shift traffic/info (searchable text) over to FB instead of here (where it owns the content & can generate revenue to sustain business rather than hand ad $ to FB)? If they own - lets use a random round number - 7000 communities/sites/forums why would they want to do that in scale either?

I'm honestly curious.

I fully get it that FB/Social drives possible SALES & promotion of actual products to sell. What is JEMSITE selling? I've felt social media could improve Jemsite DISCOVERABILITY & engagement... however it's actually rather well covered by search/siri/etc. no? Grant it, I'm not aware how FB groups can be directly monetized which I believe the site owners would want no?
I'm certain who VS is? Based on context I'm assuming the Jemsite is owned by some entity that owns a whole bunch of forums?

So I wasn't looking at this as a sort of slippery slope that could infect a whole range of communities. I was treating Jemsite as a discrete entity. The way I approached it that it costs a certain amount of money per month to host the forum and allocate a certain amount of bandwidth on the servers. As traffic to the forum drops, the revenue it generates drops. How low does it need to drop before the site is in the red? And if the site is in the red, what is the motivation to keep it going? I think we're all in agreement that traffic has really dropped off here. But what seems more important than that is, is the forum attracting and retaining new members? Or is it basically like the Elks Lodge with a few old dudes sitting around complaining about stuff? My worry is that it's much more of the latter, which should be extremely concerning.

Back to FB, what I see there is that people try to use it like a forum but it isn't really good at that. So what I'm asking is would it bear the most fruit to focus on improving the forum in the areas where FB groups are lacking? My assumption is that focusing on improving the discussion ultimately won't work. It will just be the same old guys who were fine with the old format anyway. So returning to your original question about why would the owners want to point outside their ecosystem, I think the answer is that you have to go where your customers are. You would be betting that any loss you'd have from that would be offset by traffic coming back for the compelling features you're offering.
03-22-2018 10:18 AM
Mah
Re: did a whole bunch of forums just get merged?

Actually, I do not see a problem here. Generally all forums have it to itself that various people with different resources of knowledge write here and sometimes it may turn into a trash. Forum is not database. Although on the other hand I have no problem searching for topics that interest me. The principle of professional forums is that inappropriate posts are removed or moved, topics with answers closed and repeated questions sent back to the search engine. Of course, I realize this means a lot of moderation. I'm not sure how much this forum is professional and how much discussionable. I'm sure there is a lot of knowledge here.

>I do not really understand why I should use facebok to search if I have google? Maybe I'm old fashioned!?


J.
03-21-2018 08:50 PM
jemsite
Re: did a whole bunch of forums just get merged?

^ more good feedback thx. I'm just considering all POV with no skin in the game.... I get the facebook (private) group thing including convenience, simplicity, networkability & discoverability. Totally.

But I honestly ask why would VS want to shift traffic/info (searchable text) over to FB instead of here (where it owns the content & can generate revenue to sustain business rather than hand ad $ to FB)? If they own - lets use a random round number - 7000 communities/sites/forums why would they want to do that in scale either?

I'm honestly curious.

I fully get it that FB/Social drives possible SALES & promotion of actual products to sell. What is JEMSITE selling? I've felt social media could improve Jemsite DISCOVERABILITY & engagement... however it's actually rather well covered by search/siri/etc. no? Grant it, I'm not aware how FB groups can be directly monetized which I believe the site owners would want no?
03-21-2018 05:11 PM
Takin' a Ride
Re: did a whole bunch of forums just get merged?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jemsite View Post
Although it's not AFAIK about "beating" anyone I get what you're saying & will present it to VS. I'm not sure of their social media strategy nor Keebali's prior. To me Instagram is a very obvious platform since it's less obnoxious/intrusive/divisive and gets far more engagement visually (also allowing for comments). It's a matter of what is the goal that's certainly not for me to say.
I only used "beating" in the context of the old saying I quoted. It was more of a comment on the outsize role social media has come to play. I feel that forums still have an important role to play and perhaps the best solution is more of a partnership with social media? The problem I think with Instagram is that it's inherently an individual thing. There is no way to make an interactive group there like you can on FB.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jemsite View Post
the Ibanez wikia? how so... what do you recommend?
Not sure how to implement it but it seems like a natural partnership. He's the best at what he does, which is cataloging models of Ibanez guitars. But what he doesn't provide is any discussion, advice, tech support, etc. It seems silly to try and reinvent the work he's done rather than just direct traffic there. Similarly he would direct traffic here for all the things his site is not set up to do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jemsite View Post
You could debate what "thrive" means but...
Well I don't think that it will ever mean what it did in the days before the rise of social media. So I think you'd have to define it in a way that is relevant to today, which is sort of what I'm attempting to do. In the business I'm in, I see this all the time with companies where their core technology loses much of its relevance. Usually what happens is they retrench and focus on the ways their solution still resonates and then work on excelling at that.
03-21-2018 12:06 PM
jemsite
Re: did a whole bunch of forums just get merged?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Takin' a Ride View Post
This feeds into another thought I had. Why not just embrace FB? The whole "if you can't beat 'em join 'em" idea. What about some kind of partnership? Would have to be with the Ibanez RG Series Fans one for obvious reasons. There are a bunch of ex-Jemsite people there who recognize the value of this forum and realize the limitations of Facebook as an information platform. Rather than making what is probably a futile effort to win back the everyday conversations, why not focus on making this THE central resource for Ibanez guitar info.
Although it's not AFAIK about "beating" anyone I get what you're saying & will present it to VS. I'm not sure of their social media strategy nor Keebali's prior. To me Instagram is a very obvious platform since it's less obnoxious/intrusive/divisive and gets far more engagement visually (also allowing for comments). It's a matter of what is the goal that's certainly not for me to say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Takin' a Ride View Post
To that point Keith Harrison's Wiki page should also be embraced here.
the Ibanez wikia? how so... what do you recommend?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Takin' a Ride View Post
In my mind the days of one source for all your needs are past. It's more about specialization in some area. For Jemsite to thrive, it should focus on being the best at something.
Agree for sure. You could debate what "thrive" means but...
03-21-2018 08:40 AM
Takin' a Ride
Re: did a whole bunch of forums just get merged?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBazz View Post
The value of Jemsite is decades of valuable information and discussion, if you google an issue relating to these guitars then a Jemsite thread pops up. That said the RG/Jem facebook group is massive and very active, someone posts a problem on there and within minutes they will have a bunch of solutions, some of them pointing to Ibanezrules or Jemsite but usually in the form of freeflowing discussion. Of course as mentioned it's gone as quickly as it came, into the abyss.
This feeds into another thought I had. Why not just embrace FB? The whole "if you can't beat 'em join 'em" idea. What about some kind of partnership? Would have to be with the Ibanez RG Series Fans one for obvious reasons. There are a bunch of ex-Jemsite people there who recognize the value of this forum and realize the limitations of Facebook as an information platform. Rather than making what is probably a futile effort to win back the everyday conversations, why not focus on making this THE central resource for Ibanez guitar info. To that point Keith Harrison's Wiki page should also be embraced here.

In my mind the days of one source for all your needs are past. It's more about specialization in some area. For Jemsite to thrive, it should focus on being the best at something.
03-21-2018 04:43 AM
BigBazz
Re: did a whole bunch of forums just get merged?

The value of Jemsite is decades of valuable information and discussion, if you google an issue relating to these guitars then a Jemsite thread pops up. That said the RG/Jem facebook group is massive and very active, someone posts a problem on there and within minutes they will have a bunch of solutions, some of them pointing to Ibanezrules or Jemsite but usually in the form of freeflowing discussion. Of course as mentioned it's gone as quickly as it came, into the abyss.
03-20-2018 03:42 PM
Takin' a Ride
Re: did a whole bunch of forums just get merged?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich View Post
Different finishes make a different model. They take the VWH and make it BK and you're not going to count it? Although I do get your point. And it's not that there's any lack of new releases to talk about.
I was reinforcing your earlier point. Even if you don't count the three swirls or neons as distinct models, the Jem has been extremely prolific compared with almost anything Ibanez has done.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jemsite View Post
For example when I was posting an AZ master thread... which "forum" did it belong?
It seems like people generally consider it a mature RG if that means anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jemsite View Post
OTOH pickup/wiring advice is served well in a separate forum. There is no harm in someone coming to post, ask a question & leave for a while.
I wasn't implying merging the tech section into the rest of the forum. Not sure if it seemed like I was implying that? What I meant was to feature the tech section more prominently. I feel that its underserved within the Ibanez community.
03-20-2018 02:19 PM
Drew
Re: did a whole bunch of forums just get merged?

Interesting, thanks.

For purely historical reasons, I'm sorry to see the seven string forum go - Ibanez was the first company to offer a production seven string, the 7620 was, after they got blown out for pocket change, the de-facto starter seven for countless players, and that forum eventually led to the split-off to sevenstring.org... But, at the same time, I'll be the first to admit it doesn't get a ton of traffic these days, so I understand why it was consolidated.
03-20-2018 09:25 AM
jemsite
Re: did a whole bunch of forums just get merged?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Takin' a Ride View Post
Back to the topic at hand, I guess the main question that needs to get answered is what is the purpose of this forum? Is it a forum about Jems as the name implies or is it more of a general Ibanez forum? The answer to that question kind of dictates how the forum "should" be structured.

I've always thought of this as being more of a general Ibanez forum, which if you look at the official Ibanez forum, I think you would quickly decide that it is. The Jem is the halo model that brings people in. It's an aspirational model. A vast majority of people will never own one and will instead have some kind of RG or possibly some other model.

So to a typical person, it's cool to think about a Jem but really what they'll want to discuss is the RG. If you go look at Sweetwater of something, you'll find a bewildering array of those: Prestige, Genesis, Premium, Iron Label. What is the difference between those? Which one should I buy? That's the kind of question I see most people interested in. The largest and most active Facebook groups are structured around that concept: discussion about the RG and anything that is based on an RG, which would include the Jem and Universe (I realize the the RG is derived from the Jem, not the other way around...just go with me). In these groups, discussion about all those varieties of guitar peacefully coexist without too much MIJ snobbery.

One thing that I think is extremely poorly served in Facebook groups is tech. As soon as someone asks a tech question, it's effectively gone within a day or two. The nature of Facebook does not lend itself to permanence. To me that's the real potential draw to this place: people come for the tech and stay for the discussion. I think it will be hard to revitalize this place on guitar discussion alone. When I can point my phone at my guitar, take a picture and seconds later be having a discussion about it, that's a big draw. The mobile interface to this forum is just never going to be as good as Facebook.

By focusing on tech, there would be a real reason to come to this page. I see tons of references to Rich's site for this reason. But those are static documents. Plus there's really nothing there about wiring, which comes up constantly.
Thanks for getting back on topic & the feedback. You've hit the nail right on the head. Guitars are unspecific now in that the Ibanez stuff is a blur. More MIC/MII less MIJ sold too. For example when I was posting an AZ master thread... which "forum" did it belong? How about the RG550 (MIJ but not Prestige)? Times change as do the categories so making it easier to see more topics of discussion is good. OTOH pickup/wiring advice is served well in a separate forum. There is no harm in someone coming to post, ask a question & leave for a while.

The value of "jemsite forum" is the informed & helpful replies you get now & visible for reference. Sure you can look up a model quickly on the web and get static specs from a wiki and some pictures but that gives you an incomplete picture and generic/static info... sometimes it's enough sometimes people want more. When they want more these inquires just don't invite 5-page follow up discussion. Which is fine.
03-20-2018 09:17 AM
Rich
Re: did a whole bunch of forums just get merged?

Different finishes make a different model. They take the VWH and make it BK and you're not going to count it? Although I do get your point. And it's not that there's any lack of new releases to talk about.
03-20-2018 08:36 AM
Takin' a Ride
Re: did a whole bunch of forums just get merged?

Back to the topic at hand, I guess the main question that needs to get answered is what is the purpose of this forum? Is it a forum about Jems as the name implies or is it more of a general Ibanez forum? The answer to that question kind of dictates how the forum "should" be structured.

I've always thought of this as being more of a general Ibanez forum, which if you look at the official Ibanez forum, I think you would quickly decide that it is. The Jem is the halo model that brings people in. It's an aspirational model. A vast majority of people will never own one and will instead have some kind of RG or possibly some other model.

So to a typical person, it's cool to think about a Jem but really what they'll want to discuss is the RG. If you go look at Sweetwater of something, you'll find a bewildering array of those: Prestige, Genesis, Premium, Iron Label. What is the difference between those? Which one should I buy? That's the kind of question I see most people interested in. The largest and most active Facebook groups are structured around that concept: discussion about the RG and anything that is based on an RG, which would include the Jem and Universe (I realize the the RG is derived from the Jem, not the other way around...just go with me). In these groups, discussion about all those varieties of guitar peacefully coexist without too much MIJ snobbery.

One thing that I think is extremely poorly served in Facebook groups is tech. As soon as someone asks a tech question, it's effectively gone within a day or two. The nature of Facebook does not lend itself to permanence. To me that's the real potential draw to this place: people come for the tech and stay for the discussion. I think it will be hard to revitalize this place on guitar discussion alone. When I can point my phone at my guitar, take a picture and seconds later be having a discussion about it, that's a big draw. The mobile interface to this forum is just never going to be as good as Facebook.

By focusing on tech, there would be a real reason to come to this page. I see tons of references to Rich's site for this reason. But those are static documents. Plus there's really nothing there about wiring, which comes up constantly.
03-20-2018 08:12 AM
Takin' a Ride
Re: did a whole bunch of forums just get merged?

The Jem and JS are certainly not lacking for new models in recent years. Not counting finishes as different models I get 14 distinct models this decade.

UV77RE (2010)
JEM505 (2010)
JEM77FP2 (2011)
JEMEVO (2012)
JEM70V (2012)
JEM7V7 (2013)
UV70P (2013)
UV71P (2015)
JEMJR (2015)
UV77 (2016)
JEM77P (2016)
JEM777 (2017)
JEM77WDP (2017)
JEMJRSP (2018 )

I think it would be pretty tough to say that they're not constantly offering new things in the Jem line. There's something new pretty much every year. Most of the signature models offer far less variety than the Jem.
03-19-2018 07:23 PM
Rich
Re: did a whole bunch of forums just get merged?

let's refresh then since the SFG was 2012
JEMEVO
JEM70SFG
JEM77PBFP
JEM77WDP
JEM777LG
JEM777SK
JEM777DY
JEM777LSK
JEM777LDY
JEM JR Full Vine
JEM whatever PK
JEM whatever YE
JEM7V7WH
UV70PBK
UV71PWH
UV77SVR
UV77WFR
UV77PSN
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