Jemsite

Jemsite (https://www.jemsite.com/forums/)
-   Players & Bands, Music & Sounds, Tours & Jams, Lessons & Theory! (https://www.jemsite.com/forums/27-players-bands-music-sounds-tours-jams-lessons-theory/)
-   -   Reverb asks, “Will Immersive Audio Change the Future of Music?” (https://www.jemsite.com/forums/f27/reverb-asks-%93will-immersive-audio-change-future-music-%94-164207.html)

Formerly Given To Fly 04-26-2019 03:37 AM

Reverb asks, “Will Immersive Audio Change the Future of Music?”
 
https://reverb.com/news/will-immersi...uture-of-music

I welcome you to read the article/essay and share your thoughts.

Anything is possible! :wink2: The Genelec 7.1.4 speaker setup mentioned in the beginning of the article is $27 short of $40,000. I have no doubt it sounded spectacular but most people are not in the position to spend $40,000 on immersive audio. The people that are in the position to spend that amount of money can usually do so several times over. Due to this rather large barrier to entry, high quality immersive music will likely not catch on in a major way, but I could be wrong.

With that said, binaural recording can sound unbelievably good when done well. A Neumann KU-100 is usually required along with someone who knows how to use it. I feel that is not too much to ask.

Ironically, I have been buying music from a label called 2L. http://www.2l.no/ They are a Norwegian label run by Morten Lindberg. He is respected amongst his peers. They record immersive classical/acoustic music in Norway’s massive churches at really high-resolutions using really expensive equipment. I am limited to listening in stereo, but the stereo versions of their recordings are the best recordings I’ve ever heard. Then again, maybe I haven’t heard very much. 2L uses speaker formats like 7.1.4 and one day I hope to hear their recordings as intended. They offer digital downloads and physical media in the form of Pure Audio Blu-Rays and Hybrid CD/SACD (you get both discs in the case).

The boundaries have been pushed (NHK 22.2 for example) and will continue to be pushed, but right now, the convenience of Spotify and Apple Music is too alluring making it the easy option for many people. I do not blame them either because companies make streaming music effortless and never mention things like audio quality other than to say “it’s good.”

If there is anything to take away from the article is the reality that musicians have options now that used to be mere pipe dreams. These options are not free and not as accessible as a digital modeler into a Mac, but that might not be a bad thing. Time will tell. ;)

Formerly Given To Fly 05-02-2019 03:52 AM

Re: Reverb asks, “Will Immersive Audio Change the Future of Music?”
 
A couple of things need to be added:
Immersive audio has already changed recorded music. Fantasia (1940) is a good example.

The future of music is unknown, just like the future of most things. However, sometimes you meet a person who works in the broadcasting industry who knows the intended plan for the future of media. I met such a person and what I learned was the audio side of A/V media is going to be "object based audio." Dolby Atmos, DTS:X, Aura 3D are object based audio codecs. Now, the more speakers you have the more resources object based audio has to work with, but the cool thing is the audio adjusts to the number of channels available to it. I do not really understand how this works but I was given an app from a company in the Netherlands (perfectly normal everyday occurrence) demonstrating what the different speaker configurations sound like through headphones. It is pretty amazing.

Most of what I've mentioned is not music though, it's audio. Immersive audio creates ambiance and an immersive environment. This works for some music, but for the most part, recorded music tends to work best when it reflects how the music is performed live (assuming it is). Music is also not a leader in the media world. In fact, it has been referred to as "the Wild West." Musicians will experiment with these revived/new tetrahedral microphones and might create something truly new.

(I take back my criticism of Apple. I did not realize the iPhone supports Dolby Digital Plus (E‑AC‑3)(7.1 surround). I am not sure how useful it is at the moment but it seems it has potential. I know other devices have supported Dolby Atmos, but I did not criticize them.)

jono 05-02-2019 07:13 PM

Re: Reverb asks, “Will Immersive Audio Change the Future of Music?”
 
It’s great tech, but from what I’ve seen the future of music is the opposite of what that article suggests. It’s mobile and personal, not immersive and static. Ok so ithe article does hit on that point in its summary, but my statement is so much more dramatic ;)

Whatever works best through the next generation of headphones is where music is headed. To be listened to on the tube, in the supermarket and whilst cutting yourself off from the guy running on the treadmill next to you at the gym.

Formerly Given To Fly 05-03-2019 04:10 AM

Re: Reverb asks, “Will Immersive Audio Change the Future of Music?”
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jono (Post 1540497)
It’s great tech, but from what I’ve seen the future of music is the opposite of what that article suggests. It’s mobile and personal, not immersive and static. Ok so ithe article does hit on that point in its summary, but my statement is so much more dramatic ;)

Whatever works best through the next generation of headphones is where music is headed. To be listened to on the tube, in the supermarket and whilst cutting yourself off from the guy running on the treadmill next to you at the gym.

It is great tech, especially inside of a Genelec demonstration room. Object-based audio is very effective on the headphones you own now. This is where I stop understanding how it works because it has more to do with codecs and software than the headphones. The strengths of immersive audio have a practical use in film through sound FX. There are certain conventions we follow when listening to music that are primarily determined by our brain that we won't break. We will enhance them if possible.

I do no think very many musicians know what is possible and what simply doesn't work. Demonstrations are cool, but they can be misleading, unless every piece of guitar gear you've bought has actually made you a better player and changed your life, as they promise to do. ;)

Jemerator 05-03-2019 06:39 PM

Re: Reverb asks, “Will Immersive Audio Change the Future of Music?”
 
Very interesting topic and insights.
I can speak of my Sennheiser experience. Sennheiser has committed themselves to immersive audio as "the future of audio".
Several products are already available in the so called AMBEO range. Regarding Jonos post I would say that the AMBEO Smart Headset is as good as portable binaural audio can get. You have to try it, but everyone has to decide for themselves.
Here is a link: www.youtube.com/watch?v=40r8JE7aVI8

If you get the chance, listen to the upcoming AMBEO soundbar, it is absoutely mindblowing. I work for Sennheiser, so you might say that I am not very objective, but I can tell you that a direct comparison of the soundbar to a full 5.1.4 set of Neumann monitors is pretty unbelievable. Not only the base response without any subwoofer, but especially the 3D audio with the sound coming even from behind, due to the calculated room reflections, is totally crazy.
Here is a guy from gizmodo who can relate: https://gizmodo.com/sennheisers-firs...bar-1821977579

Does this change the way music will be recorded or played back? Surely not in the short term, but for binaural audio and virtual or augmented reality it already does. Even if companies like Magic Leap seem to need more time for their developments, it will surely be a future market that might entail music.
https://www.engadget.com/2018/10/09/...biuHAAKVkTrVSy

Formerly Given To Fly 05-04-2019 12:06 AM

Re: Reverb asks, “Will Immersive Audio Change the Future of Music?”
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jemerator (Post 1540505)
Very interesting topic and insights.
I can speak of my Sennheiser experience. Sennheiser has committed themselves to immersive audio as "the future of audio".
Several products are already available in the so called AMBEO range. Regarding Jonos post I would say that the AMBEO Smart Headset is as good as portable binaural audio can get. You have to try it, but everyone has to decide for themselves.
Here is a link: www.youtube.com/watch?v=40r8JE7aVI8

If you get the chance, listen to the upcoming AMBEO soundbar, it is absoutely mindblowing. I work for Sennheiser, so you might say that I am not very objective, but I can tell you that a direct comparison of the soundbar to a full 5.1.4 set of Neumann monitors is pretty unbelievable. Not only the base response without any subwoofer, but especially the 3D audio with the sound coming even from behind, due to the calculated room reflections, is totally crazy.
Here is a guy from gizmodo who can relate: https://gizmodo.com/sennheisers-firs...bar-1821977579

Does this change the way music will be recorded or played back? Surely not in the short term, but for binaural audio and virtual or augmented reality it already does. Even if companies like Magic Leap seem to need more time for their developments, it will surely be a future market that might entail music.
https://www.engadget.com/2018/10/09/...biuHAAKVkTrVSy

Anytime you want to post information like this, please, do not hesitate. It is useful! ;)

jono 05-04-2019 02:41 AM

Re: Reverb asks, “Will Immersive Audio Change the Future of Music?”
 
I love the idea of this but I don't see (hear?) how this is going to work... Especially through headphones...

I watched the video of the guy with the beard and the glasses and I get the true left to right thing, but how can it model the up down and forwards backwards dimensions? There doesn't seem enough available "speakerage" in a pair of headphones... I certainly got a left/right idea with more echo but none of the videos seemed to have overhead noise, or front/back noise, things were very much left/right...

Most of the folks I see are still using the standard headphones that come with their phone, or have upgraded to some that look like they're from 1980 ;) I'm using the ones from the original packaging of my phone I think, or direct replacements.

I think the biggest issue that will be faced will be convincing people to upgrade hardware, unless it becomes cheap enough to be the only choice! Most folks I know still use the standard speakers in their TV, they're happy to drive a Porsche or an Alfa Romeo, but they're not going to want to pay extra for new speakers. It might be a generational thing, or a British thing, or a grumpy old man thing...

Jemerator 05-04-2019 08:26 AM

Re: Reverb asks, “Will Immersive Audio Change the Future of Music?”
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jono (Post 1540509)
I love the idea of this but I don't see (hear?) how this is going to work... Especially through headphones...

I watched the video of the guy with the beard and the glasses and I get the true left to right thing, but how can it model the up down and forwards backwards dimensions? There doesn't seem enough available "speakerage" in a pair of headphones... I certainly got a left/right idea with more echo but none of the videos seemed to have overhead noise, or front/back noise, things were very much left/right...

Most of the folks I see are still using the standard headphones that come with their phone, or have upgraded to some that look like they're from 1980 ;) I'm using the ones from the original packaging of my phone I think, or direct replacements.

I think the biggest issue that will be faced will be convincing people to upgrade hardware, unless it becomes cheap enough to be the only choice! Most folks I know still use the standard speakers in their TV, they're happy to drive a Porsche or an Alfa Romeo, but they're not going to want to pay extra for new speakers. It might be a generational thing, or a British thing, or a grumpy old man thing...

One part of how this works is the HRTF or Head-Related Transfer Function (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-r...nsfer_function).
How good this works depends on your ears' anatomy compared to the recording arrangement AND of course how good your headphones are. Open-back headphones also work better.
Excuse me, but all headphones that come with a phone are a gift of several bucks, nothing more. You get what you pay for, a GIO isn't a Jem. And we all know it will never be, regardless of what amp you use with the guitar or phone you use with the headphones. Whenever I give my IE 800 to a friend who is interested, I always get the same response: "Wow. I never heard such a detailed and rich sound coming from in-ears. And I never thought this would even be possible."
A lot of people are just not interested in these things and like having a nice car instead. There is not much you can do about it other than having them a listen. I personally sometimes think of how many nice Ibanez guitars I could have bought for the money that I have spent on my car. :(

BTW: I haven't tried it myself but you can mix binaural audio yourself if you don't have the Neumann KU100 by using a pair of omnis at the right distance apart and something in between them and then use the free Sennheiser AMBEO Orbit daw plugin (https://en-us.sennheiser.com/ambeo-blueprints-downloads).

Binaural audio is already fantastic for live music performances or channels that try to create immersive experiences filming just with their smartphones.


Formerly Given To Fly 05-05-2019 03:30 AM

Re: Reverb asks, “Will Immersive Audio Change the Future of Music?”
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jono (Post 1540509)
I love the idea of this but I don't see (hear?) how this is going to work... Especially through headphones...

I watched the video of the guy with the beard and the glasses and I get the true left to right thing, but how can it model the up down and forwards backwards dimensions? There doesn't seem enough available "speakerage" in a pair of headphones... I certainly got a left/right idea with more echo but none of the videos seemed to have overhead noise, or front/back noise, things were very much left/right...

Most of the folks I see are still using the standard headphones that come with their phone, or have upgraded to some that look like they're from 1980 ;) I'm using the ones from the original packaging of my phone I think, or direct replacements.

I think the biggest issue that will be faced will be convincing people to upgrade hardware, unless it becomes cheap enough to be the only choice! Most folks I know still use the standard speakers in their TV, they're happy to drive a Porsche or an Alfa Romeo, but they're not going to want to pay extra for new speakers. It might be a generational thing, or a British thing, or a grumpy old man thing...

To some degree, the original question presents a Catch 22: we can’t predict the future of music or what it might sound like when played back in “immersive formats” we are not very familiar with. To get out of this Catch 22, we have to trust the people who are familiar with “immersive formats.” You can assume they work. Whether they can be musically useful is the question at hand. I think it depends on the style of music. As for upgrading hardware, I’m fairly confident no one will need new audio equipment tomorrow because everything related to recorded music is changing. This is not really about innovation using new technology. It is more about creating something worth listening to using old but highly refined technology.

Formerly Given To Fly 05-07-2019 03:13 AM

Re: Reverb asks, “Will Immersive Audio Change the Future of Music?”
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jono (Post 1540509)
I love the idea of this but I don't see (hear?) how this is going to work... Especially through headphones...

I watched the video of the guy with the beard and the glasses and I get the true left to right thing, but how can it model the up down and forwards backwards dimensions? There doesn't seem enough available "speakerage" in a pair of headphones... I certainly got a left/right idea with more echo but none of the videos seemed to have overhead noise, or front/back noise, things were very much left/right...

Most of the folks I see are still using the standard headphones that come with their phone, or have upgraded to some that look like they're from 1980 ;) I'm using the ones from the original packaging of my phone I think, or direct replacements.

I think the biggest issue that will be faced will be convincing people to upgrade hardware, unless it becomes cheap enough to be the only choice! Most folks I know still use the standard speakers in their TV, they're happy to drive a Porsche or an Alfa Romeo, but they're not going to want to pay extra for new speakers. It might be a generational thing, or a British thing, or a grumpy old man thing...

You bring up some fair points that deserve to be addressed. Binaural audio recorded with the KU-100 “hears” sound the same way your ears and ultimately your brain hears sound. When TV’s first came out, I have to imagine people noticed fire trucks were not red, lakes were not blue, and plants were not green. The screen did not reflect reality. Since color was introduced, color accuracy has been improved, researched, improved, researched, improved, etc. Ironically, I’m not sure how well the screen reflects reality today either. It seems to be a heightened, sensationalized reality. That is the only analogy I can think of at the moment. There is also the fact the brain fills in, filters out, and focuses its attention on sound it deems important, all on a subconscious level. Binaural audio makes you conscious of how you hear sound. That is how I would describe it. I do not really “understand” how it works though. I just know that it does.

As far as the internet is concerned, YouTube has become the standard for audio/visual material. This is a problem because if you listen to 20 different uploads of the same song, they will not all sound the same. This problem is compounded by the playback systems people use and by playback systems I mean headphones. Your observations are accurate about people’s disposition towards paying for sound related products: “a sound bar costs $300 and earbud headphones are free.” Convincing people they should spend their money on sound related equipment is impossible. The people who do spend money on sound related equipment do not need to be convinced. You have highlighted the problem with giving things away for free in a non-charitable way. When a person buys a phone and it comes with headphones they perceive the headphones as being free. The same is true with a TV. The same is true with music on YouTube. It is all perceived as free because it is, unless you are an economist. ;)

When the music is free and the speakers are free, how do you make either of them cheaper? (Rhetorical)

You play a good “Devils Advocate” which is valuable.

Formerly Given To Fly 05-22-2019 02:56 AM

Re: Reverb asks, “Will Immersive Audio Change the Future of Music?”
 
For some final thoughts on the matter, these people https://mpeg.chiariglione.org/ play a major role in planning the media landscape. They will have a better idea about the future than I.

By the way, if you like music, need headphones, these are worth a look: https://drop.com/buy/massdrop-sennheiser-hd6xx 8O


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:26 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
(c) jemsite.com

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome