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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey guys

please enjoy this rig rundown video of AT during the Protocol II tour with Simon Phillips.

 

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The fact he says so many good things about the AT-10P says alot about the Premium factory sigs.

Also that White prototype is GORGEOUS. I hope they make that a production model.
 

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No questioning the fact that Andy is great. But before Andy endorsed that guitar I think you could buy it out of the guitar center clearance section for 250 bucks with a free amp cord, picks and strap.
 

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I think you are mistaken, POS. You are referring to the RX, I believe. The AT is a descendant of the RT (like the RT650), which were priced similar to the higher-tier RGs, or at leas consistant with MIJ pricing, since it was MIJ.
 

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No questioning the fact that Andy is great. But before Andy endorsed that guitar I think you could buy it out of the guitar center clearance section for 250 bucks with a free amp cord, picks and strap.
I think it's a GIO you are referring to?

yeah, thanks to the GIO, Andy AT100 never look like a 2k guitar.
 

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I think it's a GIO you are referring to?

yeah, thanks to the GIO, Andy AT100 never look like a 2k guitar.
Yeah, haha I was just joking, sort of.

When I see that guitar I see a quote off one of my favorite party tshirts..."I shaved my balls FOR THIS???":lol:

For 2000 dollars, what makes that guitar better than one of my favorite best playing and sounding guitars ever...a less than 200 dollar fender squier bullet? Pickups? (I am dead serious)

Of course, it's supposedly everything in a guitar that andy ever wanted...or is it every guitar that Ibanez ever wanted Andy to have?
The jury is still out on that one. WHen I hear andy talk about the guitar, I hear largely the same lines that steve vai and joe satriani must have been given on their cue cards.:wink:
 

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I dunno man. Steve and Joe get cue cards, Andy is far more down to earth imo (which makes me like him more than both Steve and Joe). I would probably trust Andy's word more than the faces of Ibanez.
 

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Gorgeous sound out of those Cruiser pups. I gotta try an AT one of these days, has many features I like - HSS, Stratty neck, non-locking whammy.
 

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I dunno man. Steve and Joe get cue cards, Andy is far more down to earth imo (which makes me like him more than both Steve and Joe). I would probably trust Andy's word more than the faces of Ibanez.
I'm not questioning anything regarding andy. I really like him and I think he's an excellent player with a very nice sound.

I just think the guitar could be a lot better, or if it's really the way andy does like it (which is fine) it could definitely be about 1300 dollars less.
There is just no substance to warrant that price.
 

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I'm not questioning anything regarding andy. I really like him and I think he's an excellent player with a very nice sound.

I just think the guitar could be a lot better, or if it's really the way andy does like it (which is fine) it could definitely be about 1300 dollars less.
There is just no substance to warrant that price.
Any less than a JS1000 or a JEM70V? Does a vine inlay really make that much of a difference to you? Because a JEM, one could argue, is a white AT10P with a different fretboard, different-but-equivalent-quality pickups, and a different-but-still-gotoh-made bridge. And the Jem70V premium is a $1400 guitar - to you, that's money well spent. but a $1300 AT10P isn't?

I don't think a "flashy" SHOULD be more expensive than an "understated" one. The better guitar should be more expensive, end of story.

And, for me, the fact Andy's tone is TO ME way more musical than Vai's is a pretty big difference. ;)

EDIT - wanted to also explicitly state that I'm not trying to be antagonistic or accusatory here, but rather say more or less this: that a value preposition is going to be different for every different player, and what YOU consider to be the signs of quality in a guitar are going to differ from what others look for. Accordingly, just because you think an AT10P looks cheap doesn't mean it SHOULD be cheap, or that it's no better than a $250 GIO starter set guitar. There's a lot more that goes into it.

One of the best six strings I've ever played is this:



Not mine, alas. Visually, nothing to it - oil finished alder body, matte-finished natural maple neck, two pickups, and a trem. But man, what an ass-kicker of a guitar, and does it ever sound and play spectacularly.
 

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I don't think a "flashy" SHOULD be more expensive than an "understated" one. The better guitar should be more expensive, end of story.
+1

i'm usually a lurker around here nowadays, but felt compelled to agree and comment. POS, keep in mind that andy left ibanez for a short time a few years ago (right after he stopped playing the at300, which from what i've heard was starting to make his hands hurt). he said he still loved his at100, but wanted to have the freedom to play whatever he felt like. i think the fact that ibanez rereleased the at100 really shows how much they valued him as an endorsee.

as for the cost of the models vs features, i'm not sure why people feel the need to continue to whine about it. i think rich has said it best; guitar companies will price the models based on what they feel consumers will buy them at while achieving whatever profit margin they are targeting. as consumers, we have the power to vote with our wallets. if no one is buying the models, it's doubtful they will last for too long.

the white at100 has been around for a year or so. i saw him play it at a guitar show in dallas last year.
 

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Any less than a JS1000 or a JEM70V? Does a vine inlay really make that much of a difference to you? Because a JEM, one could argue, is a white AT10P with a different fretboard, different-but-equivalent-quality pickups, and a different-but-still-gotoh-made bridge. And the Jem70V premium is a $1400 guitar - to you, that's money well spent. but a $1300 AT10P isn't?

I don't think a "flashy" SHOULD be more expensive than an "understated" one. The better guitar should be more expensive, end of story.

And, for me, the fact Andy's tone is TO ME way more musical than Vai's is a pretty big difference. ;)

EDIT - wanted to also explicitly state that I'm not trying to be antagonistic or accusatory here, but rather say more or less this: that a value preposition is going to be different for every different player, and what YOU consider to be the signs of quality in a guitar are going to differ from what others look for. Accordingly, just because you think an AT10P looks cheap doesn't mean it SHOULD be cheap, or that it's no better than a $250 GIO starter set guitar. There's a lot more that goes into it.

One of the best six strings I've ever played is this:



Not mine, alas. Visually, nothing to it - oil finished alder body, matte-finished natural maple neck, two pickups, and a trem. But man, what an ass-kicker of a guitar, and does it ever sound and play spectacularly.
Let's not talk about intangible things because they don't matter. Break things down in cost and then let's talk about what something is worth.

We all know that jems are ridiculously overpriced. I am building one now in a different color scheme, but with all the same or better quality than a Vai DNA model...yet it didn't cost me over 3 grand. It cost me about 1300-1400 complete. That's with everything made in America with exception of the bridge and tuners.

How do they justify the price? What is the REAL cost breakdown. That's all that matters. Not who plays it. Not who thinks this or that....because none of that matters. It's all speculation. What does the labor and materials cost to produce that guitar and put it out the door with the typical extra on top to produce an HONEST profit? And not some holy crap 500 percent markup.

Everyone I purchased my parts from to build mine made a profit...or they wouldn't have done it. Yet still that guitar costs 2000 dollars? How? That's what I want to know. I wont even get into the suhr argument. While I know they are great, they aren't 3500 dollars great either...well not all of them.

This is why I've switched from buying new guitars from Ibanez to buying them used at a far more realistic price, or building them myself.

If I built that particular guitar myself I guarantee the pickups would be more than half the price of the entire guitar and I could do it for a little over 25 percent of that.

If someone can explain to me in dollars cents, and SENSE how that guitar costs 2000 dollars, I'll rethink things. I'm not unreasonable, but I'm definitely no fool either.:wink:
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
LOL, where does this lead us to? Pricing is set to a level that the market will take - and it did. So why complain? The AT100 is made in Japan out of fine materials. Can you get an equally looking and closely sounding guitar for a lower price? Yes! Can you get the exact same instrument for a lower price? No! (I am leaving out the AT10P because it is not MIJ).

So where is the point? Btw, compared to the Ibanez M8M the At100 is a bargain. ;)
 

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Let's not talk about intangible things because they don't matter. Break things down in cost and then let's talk about what something is worth.
Missed this until now - actually, the "intangibles" are exactly what matter. The quality of the work, the attention to detail, the care in selection highest quality chunks of wood, etc.

You assembled a JEM for $1400? New or used? And how much of that cost was your salary during the time you designed and worked on the guitar? Did you include the amortized cost of any tools you used, as well as a portion of your rent/mortgage and electricity used in the creation of the instrument? And what's was your profit margin? Let's say you spent no more than 10 hours of your time choosing specs, hunting them down, and assembling them, and that total costs associated with the space you worked in and electricity/heat whatever were $50 for the duration of those 10 hours. Your cost is now $1650, and a selling price of $1999 would imply a modest 21% markup, which is lower than the norm in the industry.

Now, also consider that you're a hobbyist builder, and not someone with a well earned reputation like John Suhr or this Sugi guy someone keeps talking about in the Suhr/Ibanez thread. What's THEIR time worth, compared to yours?

And all of that brings me back to this question, which you didn't answer:

me said:
And the Jem70V premium is a $1400 guitar - to you, that's money well spent. but a $1300 AT10P isn't?
 

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LOL, where does this lead us to? Pricing is set to a level that the market will take - and it did. So why complain? The AT100 is made in Japan out of fine materials. Can you get an equally looking and closely sounding guitar for a lower price? Yes! Can you get the exact same instrument for a lower price? No! (I am leaving out the AT10P because it is not MIJ).

So where is the point? Btw, compared to the Ibanez M8M the At100 is a bargain. ;)
Compared to the JEM 25th, the M8M is a bargain ;)
 

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Now, also consider that you're a hobbyist builder, and not someone with a well earned reputation like John Suhr or this Sugi guy someone keeps talking about in the Suhr/Ibanez thread. What's THEIR time worth, compared to yours?

And all of that brings me back to this question, which you didn't answer:
That person who keeps bringing up Sugi would be me :lol:

I totally agree that if someone could build their own axe, they probably would take their time, get it exactly how they like it and it would be cheaper than buying a new guitar. The problem is that the consumer base sees a big name like John Suhr or even Tom Anderson (iirc he was a master builder at Fender, I may have the name wrong though), they go nuts over having a boutique guitar made by a "master."

In the US, there seem to be a lot of people who make their own companies and use the rep they gained at some massive guitar maker just so they can overcharge for their axes. I would agree that the guy at Sugi doe the same thing, he seems to be about the only true "master" builder in Japan so there is some clout that he carries, whereas the U.S. has far more "masters" due to the time span guitars have been made there. Japan's guitar companies aren't that old in comparison to the US, and that's where the guy at Sugi has an advantage over everyone here.

The only exception I would put here is Carvin. From everything I've seen, I can get axes on the level of a JEM for half the cost through them (i.e. the new Jason Becker sig), or even get my own custom-made Carvin for a reasonable price.
 

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Carvins are hit or miss - I've played some GREAT carvins, and then some that are pretty average; pretty, but no mojo to them at all, and they just feel still and dead.

I'd disagree of course that a master builder is "overcharging" for his work - it's what the market will support. People will pay $2000-4000 (depending on specs) for a guitar out of Suhr's or Anderson's shop because they know the quality they're getting, while I couldn't say the same about Joe down the street, you know?
 
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