[Mr_Scotia]

I will need help and input with this as im no guitar guru, ive owned and played guitars since roughly 1999 but some heads on here have a deeper understanding and knowledge of the instrument than I do.

For reference, my working background is in motorsport engineering and vehicle mechanics, trying to fabricate/build/engineer a solution here doesn't pose a problem but I only have my Roadstar RS1300's as reference. If i can pull this off then people could potentially crowd fund this thing into existence if the demand is there.

When the parts bin full of used Pro Rock'r parts dries up, and if Repro Guitar stop making T nuts, then its genuinely game over for all Pro Rock'r equipped guitars. There are too many inherent flaws on this thing to try work around.

So im basically gonna try make a fixed bridge option based off of the original Pro Rock'r bridge plate. Ive done a quick mock up using a Power Rock'r and Pro Rock'r bridge.

My plan would be to re-manufacture the main bridge plate from CNC machined steel (i dont do CNC work so please chime in if you do) I would then aim to use off the shelf saddles you see on most fixed bridge or Fender style tremolo's. This would be used with a long bolt and spring assembly to adjust intonation. The only thing im thrown off by is how to retain proper saddle height adjustment.

The sustain block on a Power Rock'r also incorporates the string retention system, the ball end of the string basically locks in to the sustain block. Making a sustain block for a Pro Rock'r with this feature would eliminate the janky OEM saddle design completely.

My plan to fix the bridge to the body may involve using the sustain block and the rear spring cavity to my advantage. In no way shape or form will i be modifying or changing the face of the guitar or the routing, so im gonna work with what i have.
I think with some inventive bracketry and fixings you could mount the bridge to the body via the sustain block. The 2 top trem posts would stay to deter side to side movement. I think most people with a Pro Rock'r who have been through the woes of owning this bridge couldn't care less if was a floating bridge or not, aslong as it works.

Basically what il end up with is a "floating-fixed bridge" due to the RS1300 body being arched, i cant mount it flat, which is why il be mounting it from the underside in the spring cavity via the sustain block.

I know some people might write this idea off, but if i can come up with a fool proof design then i could potentially figure out costs to put this system in to production.

Might save a few vintage Ibanez guitars along the way...

There is currently no aftermarket solution for these (AFAIK), ive seen people try route them for Floyd's etc, im trying to do this without cutting the guitar up. Il use my Edge equipped guitars if i feel the urge to do Dimebag Darrell pull ups on the bar. Im cool with this being a fixed bridge.


Ive included a few photos of my idea and some of the inherent Pro Rock'r faults which highlights why this needs to be done.

I will continue to add to this and i will also lay out all fasteners needed for these things, i see people paying insane money for fasteners online that can be bought at your local hardware store so i will post up fastener specs and measurements so you can buy them all for a fraction of the cost locally.

 

[Mr_Scotia]

Thats a shame, ideally if i had a spare body to use as a test bed it would be helpful. I would've happily paid you some cash and the shipping costs.

I think re-engineering a Hard Rock'r would be way easier, ive seen someone online use a Hard Rock'r in place of a Pro Rock'r. The bridge posts line up but the Hard Rock'r doesnt cover the cavity hole and it looks kinda ugly. It could be a good base to work with for ideas though.

I think that if you eliminate all Pro Rock'r issues then some saddle movement is a small price to pay, with that said, im unsure if you could cut 12 straight shallow channels for the saddle height screws to sit in to try deter side to side movement?

Ive kinda realised that ive spent almost £250 posted just for a spare bridge and about $60 for 6 new T nuts from Repro Guitar. Ive just got another RS1300 so i now need another set of T nuts. Unfortunately they are currently out of stock and it means shipping from the states for 6 little nuts again.

With the cost involved i would be better selling my spare bridge and not ordering new T nuts. Thats about £/$300 towards a custom effort straight away. If i can get the sustain block machined first it will give me an idea if i can mount this up the way im thinking.

Il look at Kahler stuff as i would obviously prefer not to have to make something, ive never came across any viable options yet though.

All options on the table here, i might be the only dude left on the planet who cares enough to try solve this issue haha

 

[Mr_Scotia]

I thought i would update the hardware sizes people need first before going any further with this idea,

So!

x 12 Saddle Height Hex/Allen Grub Screws - M3 x 0.5 x 10mm
x 3 Top Lok II Bolt Hex/Allen Cap Head - M3 x 0.5 x 8mm
x 4 Tremolo Sustain Block Bolt Hex/Allen Countersunk - M3 x 0.5 x 16mm
x 6 String Locking Peg Bolt Hex/Allen Countersunk - M3 x 0.5 x 35mm
x 6 Intonation Locking Bolt Button Head Hex/Allen - M3 x 0.5 x 6mm

Edit: You can also buy the crappy E clips used to secure the intonation adjustment screw, i have some lying around here but i cant remember the size. Buy high carbon spring steel E clips, the OEM ones are chocolate. Also, don't lose or break those intonation adjustment screws as i could never find a replacement for them. Those ones are quite particular. :

Also the humbucker ring screw sizes for these older guitars is M2.3 which is a very oddball size, i ordered a bag in from Asia so i have a whole stash of them lying around now. There may be an imperial equivalent but im unsure.

Allen key can sometimes be called "internal hex" depending on where you are in the world which is why ive used both names above. You should be able to get these at any hardware store, in the UK i can buy bags of 100 for between £5-8. Make sure the ones you order are high carbon steel, most likely grade 10 strength.

Just to clarify, all of the Pro Rock'r bolts i bought to overhaul the whole assembly were bought from general hardware stores, they are not "Mr Hoshino Magic Ibanez Bolts"

Anyone reading this would do well to arm themselves with digital vernier calipers and a thread pitch gauge. Watch some online videos about them and never have to buy overpriced OEM bolts again.

Most manufacturers design things around existing fasteners, this means you can go out and buy them yourself if you understand how to measure them up correctly.


I also found a few photos of my gold Pro Rock'r i took apart last year, it shows you that its possible to separate the saddle assembly if needed.

 

[Mr_Scotia]

So i managed to finalize a sustain block idea that i can make with basic tools just as a rough prototype. This should be done within the next 7 days.

As i mentioned above, i plan on stealing the Power Rock'r sustain block idea and mount the strings that way meaning the OEM Pro Rock'r saddle assembly can get tossed completely.

I only had billet Titanium lying around the house which i cant cut with the tools i have available so i ordered some billet Aluminium to make life easier. It will do for a rough sketch of how it mounts up and works. Final design might be steel, brass or something else. No idea yet.

Visually the new sustain block with just look like an L shape, it will mount using OEM holes and it will extend outwards toward the front of the bridge plate, this will allow for the new string mounting design.

I also mounted all the saddles i had very crudely just to visualize how this might work. Il be brainstorming ideas but i think ive figured out how to deter side to side play in the saddles and also retain a good enough saddle height to allow for radius and action changes.

This project may not be for everyone but through brainstorming ideas and general discussion it might spark an idea for someone who has a broken bridge that they cant repair. I found a guy online who used 2 part adhesive to glue a cheap 6 saddle bridge to his Pro Rock'r so it would function again.

People get really inventive when faced with desperate situations.

We shall see.

 

[Mr_Scotia]

I would basically be looking to lock the bridge to the body in some way. I dont want it floating much (mines currently sit just off the body at the posts, roughly a debit card thick gap between bridge and body)

I was thinking about a glorified trem stopper. You could make up a new sustain block and drill holes into it so you can mechanically fix the sustain block to the trem stop with nuts either side to lock it in place. Just spec a much longer bolt than is provided with the trem stopper. Failing that there's a few places where you could fasten steel brackets to the rear cavity and then fix the sustain block to those via some nut/bolt/bracket type system.

Think of those Ibanez Zero Point systems, something like that but less flashy and zero movement or springs. I would keep the bridge posts so it doesn't need maximum security via the brackets, its more like support and stability. As it sits right now with the trem claw etc, theres nothing stopping you mechanically locking it off somehow and leaving it like that with the whole OEM spring system still in place.

Im open to any ideas involving Kahler or custom brackets. Any photos or links would be really welcomed. As long as it doesn't involve cutting the guitar, i don't mind punching some holes in the rear cavity but ideally the guitar will look standard and could even be reverted back to Pro Rock'r just for the sake of originality.

Obviously i would love to avoid this whole thing, and people are probably thinking "bro just sell the guitar", it is very ambitious what im trying to do but there's genuinely a Grade A guitar under this.

My brain is constantly trying to engineer my way out of this situation, its like there's a cancer attached to the guitar and i need to cut it out

I took measurements of the pins for you, all i have to compare them with is pins i had laying around from a 370DX i had in the 2000's from Cort.

Pro Rock'r posts are M8 x 1.25 and the 370DX posts are M7 x 0.5 so its wildly different

 

[Mr_Scotia]

@Ashurbanipal the Pro Rock'r bridge posts and original Edge posts are loosely the same, i measured them this week because i have my 540P in bits. The only difference is the size of the head and the recess where the knife edges sit. The Pro Rock'r posts screw in to the 540P body no problem

Ive managed to make a very rough working prototype for the sustain block. Literally all i used was a cordless drill and a little chinese hacksaw. I dont even have a bench vice where i am just now.

As long as i can mock up a working design then i can decide on where it needs to go afterwards, i also noticed the saddles im using to mock this up are 10.5mm and not 10.8mm like they should be, it should fit much better when i get the right size saddles. There will probably be some side to side movement but the Pro Rock'r saddles are 10.8mm and those are a pretty snug fit so we will see how it goes.

I still need to drill and tap four M3 holes to mount the sustain block properly so i just clamped it together to see how it looks just now. I did have the correct drill bit but i snapped it so i need to wait on another turning up.

You can probably see the snapped drill bit in the picture of the underside of the sustain block

Quietly confident i can make something work, il deal with microscopic saddle movement as long as i can ditch those OEM saddles.

 

[Mr_Scotia]

Also, just to note.

In one of the photos above i speculated that an M3 size tap might work for threading the holes for the ZAMAK knife edge inserts, that is incorrect.

I tried an M3 grub screw and it passed through no problem so there's not enough material to tap a thread for M3, i did have a M3.5 screw at hand which i tried and that seems viable, steel knife edges would be cool but its not a deal breaker.

 

[Mr_Scotia]

I have looked in to those locking saddles but they seem to be quite hard to find and usually fairly expensive. I think i seen a used set selling for over £60 recently.

With the sustain block idea it also offers extra stability to the bridge plate as well because its oversized, i think what i will end up doing is heavily modifying a Pro Rock'r bridge and leaving it at that. It would be nice if i could offer a solution for others but i failed to take in to account that other peoples bridge plates would need straightened. I can sort all these issues out on my own guitar but i dont know how capable other people are at doing any of this.

At least if i document the procedure on here it might give people some ideas, once i get this prototype functioning i can then mount it on my Roadstar and see how it works. One thing i would like to do is have a 1.5mm thick steel plate to mount on top of the Pro Rock'r bridge plate but i don't know if its possible yet.

I think overall i can come up with a solution for my own guitar, il be using a modified bridge on my 1300NT and my 1300TR will stay OEM. I wouldn't care so much if these guitars were trash but they play amazingly well and the sustain in the neck is wild, Especially when you consider the only real contact point for the bridge is roughly 4mm worth of ZAMAK.

If these bridges had steel knife edges and a more sturdy and simplified construction then it would absolutely sing...

 

[Mr_Scotia]

Yeah i couldn't seem to find them anywhere, i think it could be a good idea though. As it stands the only real thing ive spent on this is time, il keep chipping away until i have a rough idea, dont want to spent money on expensive saddles i might never use.

So far im thinking, finish my aluminium block and get regular 10.8mm saddles, i already have longer M3 bolts and springs to work as intonation screws. The steel plate i want would basically act as a brace to prevent the bridge plate from warping again. It would cover the full recess of the bridge where the OEM saddles sit, i mocked up a photo in paint as to how it might look.

If i actually have the bridge plate re-produced then i can sort alot of problems quite easily but im not going down that route yet. I basically want a working proof of concept first before i commit real money to it. A modern day 5 axis CnC machine would make light work of reproducing that bridge.
I can have a sustain block made from any material i want based off my design, super easy to make, basically an L shape with some holes in it. A first year college student with a pillar drill and basic hand tools could make it.

If i did re-make the bridge plate i would simplify the design to something like ive posted below, dont need any rectangular cut outs because the OEM saddles are gone, also done need the whammy bar insert because il fix the bridge anyway. The black holes represent where the string holes would need to be.

Basically the whole operation of the bridge gets thrown out the window with my design, Essentially all i need is a metal baseplate with the same footprint as the one on it already. As long as that can house six 10.8mm saddles with intonation still available then im on to a winner. Im not concerned with having a proper floating bridge with whammy bar functionality. The bridge will float purely because its an arched top but it will be fixed in place in the rear cavity.

When i take my bridge plate to the engineering shop for them to straighten it out im going to ask if they can press a steel plate to match. Basically it goes, 22.5mm, right angle bend, 5mm, right angle bend, 33.5mm using 1.5mm steel plate.

If i can get that whole set up to function correctly and it makes sense then i would ask how much it would be to fabricate a new bridge plate.

 

[Mr_Scotia]

Yeah, the thread diameter and thread pitch are the same however the cut out for the knife edges is different and so is the overall size.

Ive taken a photo with the Edge trem arm holder and the Pro Rock'r trem arm holder swapped over so you can see that they are interchangeable, slight variation in the design though.

Ive actually done a bit more with regards to this custom Pro Rock'r design, i managed to drill and tap the holes to mount the prototype sustain block, i also bought a cheap fixed bridge to use the baseplate to cut up and mock up some ideas. I really need to have the Pro Rock'r bridge plate straightened out before i do any more so i need to wait until i get to the engineering shop before i continue with this. The prototype block is rough but it gives you an idea of what im trying to do. Nothing is final and its all subject to change.

Quite confident i can make something work here, the guitar il be using this on plays fine just now and its my main player when the others are under going surgery so its stayed in one piece for now. In the next few months il make some more moves with this and see what i can come up with.

Ive recently been considering sacrificing the RS1300NT and putting a tune-o-matic on it with a new veneer and new binding, basically rebuilding the whole thing. Il see how successful by custom bridge is first though....

 

[Mr_Scotia]

Funny you ask @JsXLine6, just the other day i done a very crude photo shop of my guitar with a ToM on it to see how it would look visually. That would obviously ditch any originality factor but it would make a very good guitar.

The two main things that pose problems with this is the post spacing at 84mm and the fact its an arched top. If i had a Roadstar with a Pro Rock'r and a flat body it would make my life easier with regards to making a custom bridge.

The reason im trying to work with existing post spacing and cavity route is so i can revert it back to standard in the future when i come to sell it. With that said, im starting to consider sacrificing my natural finish RS1300. I got it fairly cheap and its pretty beat up compared to my red one. I would remove front and rear veneers, binding and basically rebuild the body by filling the bridge cavity and rear spring cavity with wood. Then re-instate the veneer and binding and install a ToM, i could do a veneer on the headstock too so i can get rid of the Top Lok system.

Ive included a photo of my red RS1300 when i was building that, you can see the cavity route and post spacing, i think that Floyd Rose system would foul the bridge pickup area, i quickly checked dimensions and i don't think it would work.

One bonus if i modify my natural one is the fact i can sell the bridge for decent money and recoup almost half of what i paid for the full guitar, making the whole process a bit cheaper in the long run.

 

[Mr_Scotia]

Found a black Roadstar RS1300 on Reverb in the UK today, has a Kahler fitted so i zoomed in and took screen shots so you can see how it fits. Looks like the OEM bridge post threads have been blocked with thumb screws, Kahler posts are drilled much further back. I personally don't like it too much and would opt for a ToM conversion, certainly more expensive that way but those Kahler bridges don't look super appealing to me.

 

[Mr_Scotia]

Its a really strange looking set up. Well done to whoever fitted it though because it looks like a clean install, also well done to the owner pulling the trigger and trying to make it a better guitar. Its soul destroying looking through old catalogues and seeing how many guitars are cursed with a Pro Rock'r, at least it was short lived i suppose.

Im basically on the fence with mines now, i think il continue making my prototype fixed bridge variant for now but my head is just telling me to put a ToM on my RS1300NT. The natural one is way more rough than my red one so it doesn't merit the same treatment as the red one got. Ive already loosely priced up a ToM conversion with regards to hardware, binding and veneer. I would still need to pay labour costs of course but it would be worth it in the long run.

I think Ibanez could actually target Gibson customers with a modern ToM RS1300. Has an arched top, PAF style pickups, fairly big neck, decent weight etc. I looked at the Ibanez website and there's lots of things to tempt Jackson, Suhr, Fender customers but nothing that would suit Gibson players. With a few tweaks to the old RS1300 it could be viable for someone who prefers Les Pauls?

 

[Mr_Scotia]

I have seen the Performers and i don't like them too much, i think its too close to a Les Paul to have any merit on its own if that makes sense. I much prefer the Concert series on that side of things, i also dislike guitars with a set neck so my Artist options are basically limited to neck thru models.

I would have thought an arch top Roadstar with a ToM could maybe bridge the gap between LP shapes and SS, i think the reason Artists aren't taken too seriously these days is due to being made in china now, i would have to look through the wiki but i don't think Artists have been MIJ for a long time. Another thing that gets me is the 550/565 Genesis line, those are fairly high tech and high spec guitars straight out the box and they can afford to sell them at roughly $/£1000 a pop, so surely a MIJ ToM Roadstar would be more profitable and way easier to make?

Even in the used market Roadstar RS1000/1300 seem to list at prices from 800-1200 depending on supply/demand. Ive got £1200 minimum for a Roadstar reissue, ive even thought it out. Call it the RS2000, have either AANJ or tilt joint to improve access, carve out the back of the lower horn a bit more too. A8 Super 70 in the bridge and A3 Super 58 in the neck, Gotoh hardware, Basswood body w/ nice veneer and binding, Roadstar DX neck profile, medium jumbo frets. Job done

If Ibanez don't do it this year then the guitar i just laid out above is basically what il build with mines. I dunno, maybe Hoshino should let jemsite users run product management for a week and see what the outcome is

 

[Mr_Scotia]

One thing i noticed last night watching a Megadeth live show was Kiko using a Gibson Les Paul for 2 songs which really set my alarm bells off, that reinforced my ToM Roadstar narrative ten fold .

I had a look at the modern Ibanez stuff and it all looks the same to me, the only real ToM guitars i think are Artist and Iceman, both of which are mostly MIC. 90% of AZ models feature a floating bridge and they are more strat shaped in my opinion. I would say that AZ stuff is comparable to lower spec Roadstar shapes like RS135/140 etc due to the strat vibe but i personally don't think a modern AZ compares with a RS1000/1300 body shape.

I think the sharp edges and carved top is what strikes me the most, the horns are a unique shape too which gives it its own look. I need to be clear here, im in my early 30's so its not like im some older dude longing for times gone by. I literally grew up on RG's but since discovering these old Roadstar 1300's im totally taken by them. i just think it was a shame they were short lived and were handicapped with the Pro Rock'r.

Il front the money for Ibanez to build a prototype, take it to NAMM or whatever, do some social media hyping and see if the interest is there, if they feel it merits being put in to production then give me my money back and a guitar. If not, then il pay for the prototype and all costs involved, keep it for myself and Ibanez can tell everyone it was just a token tribute guitar to celebrate the 40th anniversary. Win win

 

[Mr_Scotia]

I think the only new addition to AZ line this year was the S-S-S config? I think i seen someone talking about a potential 7 string AZ? Maybe im wrong though.

I just feel like sometimes i sound like one of these older dudes who romanticises the olden days I didn't expect to be so interested in these guitars, i bought my first RS1300 online, unseen, unplayed. I don't even know what possessed me to buy it. I expected to play more mellow stuff on it but its actually a really good metal rhythm guitar. Since ive discovered the vintage style necks and the endless variety available im just hunting down as many as possible. I was blown away with the neck on my RR50, Im actually interested in a PL model to check out those necks too.

I think that the Roadstar 2022, Rootbeer Iceman and the weird S body with the holes cut out were the most talked about among those 50 guitars from what i seen. I also wonder what happened to it, it was a mighty amount of money for a Roadstar

Maybe because Hoshino is a business first and a guitar brand second they don't view the guitars as a heritage thing and more of a money making vessel, who knows. I think because the 80's was a period for guitar innovation on steroids some things got tossed quickly as new things came along. If no one is interested in the older models il gladly stand here and absorb all of them haha.

 

[Mr_Scotia]

Im hoping to try pick up a PL650 or similar, there was a black one in mint condition listed on reverb uk a few months back but i didn't pull the trigger on it. The back of the neck was flamed, it looked excellent but i think i was fresh off a few other purchases which held me back.

I wonder if the new Axe Design Lab could be used to reintroduce Roadstars albeit in lower numbers, i suppose they will never know if the demand is there until they release one. I think purely based off the fact that old Roadstars still seem to move easily enough in the used market makes me think there's still some sort of demand. And that's with a car crash for a bridge on it....

Moving forward il keep working on my modified Pro Rock'r so i can at least present a working solution, i feel like i need to conquer the issue in its original form, re-routing the cavity and changing the bridge is the easy way out Hopefully it will encourage others to do something similar so some of these guitars can be saved in the long run. If i do go ahead with a ToM conversion il detail that too but i think a custom sustain block and generic 10.8mm saddles would be cheaper and easier for most people.

You could basically put together a kit with a custom sustain block, 10.8mm saddles, longer intonation screws with springs and a pressed steel plate to sit on top of the bridge. I don't have the capacity to offer that but if someone else wanted to build it and monetize it i would encourage it.

The only issue is having your original Pro Rock'r pressed flat if its really bent out of shape, my engineer is top drawer, university educated metals and welding wizard. The company he works with has NASA contracts. If you take this bridge plate to anyone other than that then its probably going to break when you try straighten it and welding it back together is simply not possible. You only get one chance with these things then its game over.