[MichelIV]

I still have some experimentation to do but I'm in the process of making a sustain block for the ZRII and my S5470. I bought a "parts" ZRII trem that's missing a few parts so I could mock things up. I may end up purchasing a beat up ZR-capable S body that'll help with figuring out clearance.

Right now the plan is to do this out of tungsten as I don't have room for a huge brass block. Just looking over the cavity there is quite a bit of un-utilized space however and it seems as though they could have used a much larger block. Looking at the stock block through the full range of motion, there's plenty of space to slot in something larger.

The ZRII was surprisingly heavy overall and each piece was pretty stout. The base was nice and heavy as were the saddles. Rather surprising really.

I turned it into pieces tonight to see how it comes apart and goes together. The four middle saddles will have to come out to get to the sustain block screws but you'd be able to do it without removing the entire unit from the guitar.

There are two indexing pins on the base. Honestly, I think it's more for robotic assembly than keeping things straight once the screws are installed and tightened. They're very small. You could nip them off with a pair of wire cutters.

The fine tuners are kept in by small plastic o-rings which prevent them from backing out completely. They're easy to remove but it destroys the rings. I'm not sure if this would really hurt anything upon reassembly.

Anyway, I'm just in the teardown phase. I'll make a wax or balsa mockup of the block and then find a machine shop to do the milling.

Pics!

 

[MichelIV]

You can see the leftover plastic ring in the fine tuner threaded holes. Alsonotice the small rubber pad which sits between the saddles and base. I haven't checked to see if my S5470 has them yet.

Notice the two small locating pins on the base.

This particular tremolo as the stepped base saddles. The saddles also have two small nodules (look closely) in addition to the stepped base.

 

[Arhythmic]

Awesome!
Love those technical threads!
Just a quick question, why the machine shop? Those blocks could be shaped up with a hack saw, grinder and a little dremel (and a press drill for the holes)
Or you want it to be perfect? :smile:

 

[MichelIV]

LOL, you've obviously never cut tungsten before. It's not exactly a soft metal!

 

[MichelIV]

Forgot to ask...anyone know what the stock sustain block is made of? Magnets don't stick to it or the base plate. They do stick to the saddles.

 

[Arhythmic]

My bad! I missed the tungsten part!.. :lol:
I think that the original blocks are made out of pot-metal

 

[MichelIV]

Whatever it is it's actually quite hard (surface hardness) and heavy for such a small block.

 

[GuitarBizarre]

If you manage to make this work, I'd love to buy a block off of you, would you consider making multiples for interested parties if it works out? I was only yesterday looking around for a block or way of making such a block myself, and came to conclusion I don't have the available services to do it!

 

[MichelIV]

Yeah that was the plan. I have a few ideas including one that would not necessitate the removal of the stock sustain block and making the ZPS bracket out of tungsten too. But that last part will depend on cost. If each one is $300, no one will buy them. I'll see what everything costs to produce first and take it from there. At the very least, I'll try and produce a larger brass block that doesn't cause major interference with the body cavity.

 

[MichelIV]

Had to look up what pot metal was...I think the older trem sustain blocks in the Floyds, lo-pros, etc...those were pot metal. This is much harder and it almost looks like tool steel or even non-magnetic stainless. But I'm leaning towards some sort of tool steel due to the surface finish and weight. I'm going to try and double the volume of the block without causing interference. But I also have to consider how easy it'll be to machine and produce as that adds to the final cost. Simple shape, less tooling, double the volume.

I'm also wondering if sleeves on the springs might help. Not sure if anyone produces aftermarket springs for the ZR2's.

 

[GuitarBizarre]

When I measured mine, I came to the conclusion that you could add 1mm to every dimension, and extend further towards the back of the guitar by about an inch, without interfering with the movement of any standard route. This would only prevent you using the ZPS, and wouldn't require extra routing at all.

They would also be 7 String compatible, since the zps is the same for the ZR7

 

[MichelIV]

That's definitely my goal, no routing of the body. I sort of came to the same conclusion about the space in the back although if my memory serves, I had a bit more room on the sides to enlarge as well. Why would increasing the length on the back side affect the ZPS? That's really my other goal, not to interfere with the basic function of the guitar as it sits.

I just ordered a few small parts from Rich but forgot to order the ZPS system. It's only $35 or so and I could destroy it while mocking up parts. Should probably order that today.

 

[GuitarBizarre]

delete

 

[GuitarBizarre]

That's definitely my goal, no routing of the body. I sort of came to the same conclusion about the space in the back although if my memory serves, I had a bit more room on the sides to enlarge as well. Why would increasing the length on the back side affect the ZPS? That's really my other goal, not to interfere with the basic function of the guitar as it sits.

I just ordered a few small parts from Rich but forgot to order the ZPS system. It's only $35 or so and I could destroy it while mocking up parts. Should probably order that today.

http://www.ibanez.com/images/insets/S5470SOL_ZPS3Spring.jpg

If you extended the block back, you'd also push the ZPS bar backwards with it, meaning the ZPS would no longer really work.

Unless you only extended it BELOW the bar, but realistically I think a majority of people use the ZR in its floating configuration, where the ZPS bar is removed anyway.

 

[MichelIV]

Ah ok, makes sense. Yeah I took that into consideration. I think I have a pretty easy fix for machining in the tolerance for the bar. It was my intention to keep those dimensions (and the relationship) between the ZPS bar and sustain block the same as OEM.

Theoretically it could be made both ways.

 

[GuitarBizarre]

Fair enough. Its still a significant upgrade. Although since in theory it'd be easier to just extend the block backwards wholesale, and that way it'd give you more mass, would there be an option, should you sell these, to do a version for people who don't use the ZPS? In theory its leaving a step of the process OUT, rather than adding one IN, so maybe?

Bear in mind I'm not a machinist, so I could be wrong

 

[MichelIV]

Yep that would be the plan. The space would have to be machined out for the ZPS bar so that would be an extra step. It'd be easy to just leave that step out and give you a larger sustain block. But if it's tungsten, how much weight is too much? I don't think a lot of people want to add two pounds to an S, LOL. Once I have an approximate volume, I can figure out the weight. Tungsten is much more dense than brass and two pieces of the same dimensions will have different weights (tungsten weighing more). A brass one would need to be larger but that might be a viable and less expensive alternative to tungsten for those who don't plan on using the ZPS.

I'm going to make molds and hopefully have something "whittled" up by this weekend and then I'll see if I have a local shop who can do the machine work. If not, I'll have to find someone capable of working with tungsten. I found one shop already but if I can work with someone local, that's a bonus.

I'd invest in one of those rapid prototyping machines that print 3D plastic parts but that money is going towards guitars! Again, maybe someone in town has one. Decent ones can be had for well under $1,000 now.

 

[GuitarBizarre]

Yep that would be the plan. The space would have to be machined out for the ZPS bar so that would be an extra step. It'd be easy to just leave that step out and give you a larger sustain block. But if it's tungsten, how much weight is too much? I don't think a lot of people want to add two pounds to an S, LOL. Once I have an approximate volume, I can figure out the weight. Tungsten is much more dense than brass and two pieces of the same dimensions will have different weights (tungsten weighing more). A brass one would need to be larger but that might be a viable and less expensive alternative to tungsten for those who don't plan on using the ZPS.

I'm going to make molds and hopefully have something "whittled" up by this weekend and then I'll see if I have a local shop who can do the machine work. If not, I'll have to find someone capable of working with tungsten. I found one shop already but if I can work with someone local, that's a bonus.

I'd invest in one of those rapid prototyping machines that print 3D plastic parts but that money is going towards guitars! Again, maybe someone in town has one. Decent ones can be had for well under $1,000 now.

Well, I'll certainly be keeping a close eye. My S2170 has been crying for more sustain since I bought her!

 

[MichelIV]

I've got a S1520NT on the way and it has the Edge Lo-Pro. I've ordered a brass big block and brass claw for it as well so I'll have a pretty good reference to go by. I know the two will probably never be equal but it'd be nice to get close. Dunno what it is about the ZR trem that does this...

I also have a set of Dimarzio Gravity Storms with an HS-3 single going in to my S5470, not sure if it'll make any difference. I have one dead spot on my neck that's noticeable. An adjustment to the truss rod could probably change that, or move it up/down the scale. If I can just add enough material in the right place to at least even things out a bit, I'll be a happy camper.

 

[corey j grieve]

Another guy has gone down this path,heres a link to the thread.
Scroll down for pics and design plans etc.
http://forum.ibanez.com/yaf_postst74002p3_s5470-sustain-issue-solved.aspx