[Mr_Scotia]

I got this a few months ago but i never posted it up. As with all my guitars it was an online purchase, unplayed, a few pictures of the item, brief description and that's about it.
All 7 guitars i own were bought online like this, and thankfully everything has been mostly ok, or at least repairable in some way. However.....At some point i was due to buy a dud, and this is that dud.

Meet my Ibanez Rocket Roll RR250 with my old 540P neck on it. The original neck is apocalyptic, it has some bizarre QC issues and the fret rock was like nothing ive seen. Basically all notes from 1st fret to the 7th were inaudible, nothing but buzz. The action and neck angle was reminiscent of an unbranded nylon string Chinese acoustic, i removed the neck to find out someone had previously attacked the neck pocket with a chisel. The difference in height in the neck pocket is 0.6mm, its very very far from flat. Frets 1 and 2 have been compensated for the fretboard error and are visually shorter on the high E side. It basically needs a new fretboard and frets but it has a painted neck, which makes it a nightmare.

So at this stage im like, nah, this one has to go back. It has fatal issues that im not really willing to deal with. The guitar cost £400 so it wasn't crazy money, but i was over it within the first few hours of owning the guitar. The seller did accept my return request but then it went swiftly downhill.

The seller sent me a postage return slip with the wrong weight on it, i got him to cancel that and do another one, he bought another postage slip (which he showed me a screenshot of) and then couldn't figure out how to retrieve it in eBays system, he then tried to refund me in full (again he showed me a screenshot of this) even though i hadn't received a postage slip yet nor shipped the item, and by this point i was running at 9000 rpm. I have over 10 years experience buying and selling heavily online, and ive seen it all, but this one just blew me away.

So i took the hit, i told the guy to keep the money, toss it in the ocean for all i care. Il deal with the guitar. Just please give me my sanity back because that's worth more than the guitar.

I had absolutely no idea how i could fix it, so i basically put it in the case, tossed it under the bed, and chose to forget i even owned it. Ive only just decided to try my spare Wizard neck on it to see how it goes, and it its worked out rather well. I managed to flatten the neck pocket with various Stew Mac style shims and glue, then used a shim to adjust overall neck angle and fitted the Wizard neck. My Wizard neck has existing issues as it is but its miles better than the original RR250 neck.

Ive got a new nut on the way because the one i have is not a 17" radius so my action and radius is a bit wonky but the guitar works and plays on nearly all frets now, few dead notes but not bad all things considered.

Il take photos of what i had to do to the neck pocket next week and you can see the repair i made, until then, here's some photos of the carnage and a photo of how it currently sits.

 

[3bolt79]

I got this a few months ago but i never posted it up. As with all my guitars it was an online purchase, unplayed, a few pictures of the item, brief description and that's about it.
All 7 guitars i own were bought online like this, and thankfully everything has been mostly ok, or at least repairable in some way. However.....At some point i was due to buy a dud, and this is that dud.

Meet my Ibanez Rocket Roll RR250 with my old 540P neck on it. The original neck is apocalyptic, it has some bizarre QC issues and the fret rock was like nothing ive seen. Basically all notes from 1st fret to the 7th were inaudible, nothing but buzz. The action and neck angle was reminiscent of an unbranded nylon string Chinese acoustic, i removed the neck to find out someone had previously attacked the neck pocket with a chisel. The difference in height in the neck pocket is 0.6mm, its very very far from flat. Frets 1 and 2 have been compensated for the fretboard error and are visually shorter on the high E side. It basically needs a new fretboard and frets but it has a painted neck, which makes it a nightmare.

So at this stage im like, nah, this one has to go back. It has fatal issues that im not really willing to deal with. The guitar cost £400 so it wasn't crazy money, but i was over it within the first few hours of owning the guitar. The seller did accept my return request but then it went swiftly downhill.

The seller sent me a postage return slip with the wrong weight on it, i got him to cancel that and do another one, he bought another postage slip (which he showed me a screenshot of) and then couldn't figure out how to retrieve it in eBays system, he then tried to refund me in full (again he showed me a screenshot of this) even though i hadn't received a postage slip yet nor shipped the item, and by this point i was running at 9000 rpm. I have over 10 years experience buying and selling heavily online, and ive seen it all, but this one just blew me away.

So i took the hit, i told the guy to keep the money, toss it in the ocean for all i care. Il deal with the guitar. Just please give me my sanity back because that's worth more than the guitar.

I had absolutely no idea how i could fix it, so i basically put it in the case, tossed it under the bed, and chose to forget i even owned it. Ive only just decided to try my spare Wizard neck on it to see how it goes, and it its worked out rather well. I managed to flatten the neck pocket with various Stew Mac style shims and glue, then used a shim to adjust overall neck angle and fitted the Wizard neck. My Wizard neck has existing issues as it is but its miles better than the original RR250 neck.

Ive got a new nut on the way because the one i have is not a 17" radius so my action and radius is a bit wonky but the guitar works and plays on nearly all frets now, few dead notes but not bad all things considered.

Il take photos of what i had to do to the neck pocket next week and you can see the repair i made, until then, here's some photos of the carnage and a photo of how it currently sits.

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That looks sweet!

 

[Ashurbanipal]

That's quite a journey . So the RR neck was concaved from the factory and they just painted it and slapped it on the guitar? From the pic it looks like a heavily rolled fretboard edge along the first few frets... Maybe someone also dug out the neck pocket to try to get it playable, at which point they would've made the action suitable for nothing other than slide.

Nevertheless, I'm sure you'll resurrect it to fine form, and it's a nice addition to the Ibz stable. I assume that's the original case too, those are harder to come by than the guitars.

I guess this is one to get if you can't get a PL2660 (yeah, not like there are many of either..) - rear routed and tremolo is easier to replace with something else. I've had my hands on a PR1660, and while a nice feeling thing, the Pro Rock'r is a deal breaker (for me), and the Norlin-esque plastic plate with electronics mounted on it is ew.

For interest, there was also a 90s Japanese RR with an Edge trem and a MIK EX version (called the MER 320, with original TRS), both kinda hard to find. The latter was an EU market only thing (there was also a Destroyer version, MED 320). I can't remember what the post code of the Japan model is, it came in black and a cherry sunburst with a figured veneer, V1/2 hbs, sharkfins.

 

[Mr_Scotia]

Its pretty wild yes

I think its maybe went like this. The guitar is either a Friday guitar or the apprentice built it, either way i think the flaw existed from factory. If it was just the fretboard that was damaged i would put it down to a previous owner but the fact that frets 1 and 2 have been compensated to be shorter makes me think this happened when it was built. The frets are brutally uneven however barely worn, i think at some point in the guitars life someone took it to a "tech" wondering why it buzzes to bad. I think said tech has assumed that the buzz is being caused because the frets sit to close to the strings? Who knows what the logic was, but either way, someone hacked up the neck pocket to try improve its playability and made it drastically worse.

I firmly believe that this guitar has never played a note in its life, there's almost no damage to the body work which is rare for a pointy guitar, especially at 38 years old. My old Wizard neck isnt perfect and i have the wrong nut on it but as it stands the guitar now plays on mostly all frets, albeit with slightly high action and a wonky radius until my new nut arrives.

The fitted case is weird, its certainly from the old world as all fasteners on it are flat head screws, the case is plywood and it weighs 13kg lol. It has Chaney latches which are made in England so im unsure how it played out although i remember reading that some Ibanez guitars were shipped to distributors back in the day and they provided the hard case themselves. Its actually one of the things that sold the guitar to me, RR250 wasn't on my list but when it popped up with a case i just went for it.

I think il use the locking Wilkinson saddles you suggested to me previously, i now have a locking nut equipped neck on it so i can actually turn this little Power Rock'r bridge in to a proper locking system. I think il also use my Ibanez back stop in it too since its doing nothing just now. I also need new springs as mines have fatigue and they struggle to fight the 10.5-48 strings i have on it. When i use the bar it always goes slightly flat and i need to yank on the bar to pull it back to pitch again. Il probably use 2 medium springs on the left and right and a higher tension one in the centre so it has enough juice to return to pitch.

Thankfully once i repair this guitar it doesn't need much, the pots feel stiff as hell which is another reason i think its never really been played so those will stay. The 3 way toggle is toast for some reason, it likes to pop back from the neck position to the centre position on its own so il replace that with an OEM Ibanez one. It even has the little boomerang strap buttons which is a bonus

 

[Mr_Scotia]

I should also note, the original RR250 neck is basically a Roadstar Deluxe neck with a pointy headstock, 21.5mm at the first fret and 23mm at the 12th with a 43mm nut.

 

[Ashurbanipal]

If the buzzing is bad on the lower frets, then it sounds like the nut/slots are too low (and/or frets also being uneven). Chopping the neck pocket out (home job by the sounds/looks of it) would do exactly nothing. The adjusting the truss rod would also have less of an effect in this zone. In any case, looking at your pic, there still seems to be reasonable room between the high E and the edge of the fretboard, though it does look like the string spacing between the B and E seems to be a bit wider than between the other strings. If you plan on fixing it at some point, a combination of nut work and a fret level may be the way to go.

Yes, these guitars usually have chipped paint on the ends of the fins, so if it's pristine, indeed, hardly any play time. The pu ring and height adjustment screws also look like they have no corrosion at all!

Interesting about the case. The RGs and PLs had the grey chainsaw type (also kinda heavy), while the PL2660 got a large black fitted case with black lining, similar to what you've got; I don't know about the rest, like the X series.

Mm, the Wilkinson saddles (and some Chapstick) should give several % in tuning. I've never used these Power Rockers but from what I've seen the knives are kinda thick and rounded, slotting into the plate screwed to the guitar, rather than thin, Floyd style ones.

Those oem switches are rubbish. The actuators inside are thin brass plates, so after 30+ years, it's like a Series Land Rover where you search earnestly for the right gear. In my RS525 it was the same; when I got the guitar it was crapping out and I did strip it down completely to recondition it, but no cigar. Popped in a Gibson style switch (hole enlargement needed) and never looked back. You got $50 in those strap pins right there!

 

[Mr_Scotia]

Im glad you mentioned the nut because that's kinda wild too

Ive tried to photograph it but basically the end of the fretboard ramps up where the nut is, with the side on view you can actually see the fret tang on the 1st fret is higher up than the 2nd fret. So i think the entire neck is a bust. The fret slots are off, the fretboard has been chewed at the 1st and 2nd fret, it ramps up towards the nut(gives the first fret a scalloped look lol). I bought a radius block and tried to gently sand the frets level but even after a decent bit of work a few of them still rocked in certain areas, at that point i threw in the towel.

Im unsure how they build these necks so i dont know if its not been taped right but the side of the fretboard gets thicker at the 1st fret, it just looks a bit wavy in general. I dont know if its been taped squint before paint and thats why it looks like that or if the maple part of the neck is uneven too. Its so bad its actually hard to believe.

I cant remember where i read it but im sure i was researching Chaney cases and i came across something that suggested some old Ibanez guitars with hard cases had them built by the distributors at their final destination. Im sure i even read that some cases were UK built then shipped to USA for some other Ibanez instruments. Il try dig the info up again.

Power Rock'r is super docile but that's its strong point when compared to a Hard or Pro Rock'r. It is indeed just one big knife edge that sits in a little recessed anchor point, they have 2 little ball bearings set in to the anchor point that act as posts to stop side to side movement on the bridge plate. The string locking pads actually provide a decent bit of stability on their own so i think if you could get locking saddles too it should stay in tune fairly well when using the bar.

I had a Gibson style switch in my RS1300 and i hated it, felt quite sloppy with the spring system they use. I prefer the Ibanez ones as they have a nice mechanical click to them i think.

 

[Ashurbanipal]

I see, thanks for the extra pics - certainly possible to see how the 'bevel' was added, oops. Is that part bare wood or finished? The way these necks necks were done was taping the fretboard edges during colour application, which was then removed before the whole neck was shot with clear. So, the clear is meant to go all the way up to the fb edge. If the clear is missing in the gouged area, may have happened after the fact, but given the typical green corrosion at the fret ends, it was long ago regardless.

I think the reason the fretboard looks uneven is probably because the tape wasn't applied 100% straight during the PW application. My RS has a similar thing, particularly where the side dots are, it's easier to see the disparity between areas the black coat has crept up a bit more due to uneven taping. I'd argue it's a finish flaw rather than a wood thicknessing issue.

Does the truss rod work?

Mm, the first fret may have sprung up a bit in the slot (can you get a feeler gauge under it?); may need to be pulled, slot cleaned, reseated and glued.

Yes. Those locking saddles only come in a plain steel finish but it's about functionality in the end.

Also, good to know about the neck dimensions for these 👌.

 

[Mr_Scotia]

Nah the gouged bit still has a nice uniform clear coat over it, looks un-touched to me but in 38 years anything could happen. Might have been damaged in the first 10 years then repaired and left to mellow for 28 years but i do think this is a factory flaw. I can only speculate because it was such a long time ago but over all the neck just feels a bit awkward. The shape and profile at the rear is fine though.

The truss rod does function and the neck is perfectly straight, no major fret sprout or anything like that. The thing that throws my eyes is the fret tang with regards to the paint line. The tape line has been squint because some fret tangs are on the paint line and some have rosewood first then the paint line which looks really weird.

Il hold on to the neck and maybe look to repair it in the future, it is a painted neck which is what bothers me about the process, it might be hard to remove the fretboard and not damage the paint. That pearl white goes quite yellow so trying to touch it up or hide it wouldn't work too well i dont think...

 

[Ashurbanipal]

Hm, maybe factory flaw then. In any case, repairing it is possible but fiddly - you'd have to pull those first couple of frets, route a right-angled shelf and scarf in a new piece of rosewood. Anyway, unless it seriously affects playing, maybe less of a big deal? Yes, visually it's a bit naff, but it's also on the treble side of the neck, so you're not looking at when playing 😄.

Yeah; one thing I've noticed on others with painted necks is that the paint line seems to be at the bottom of the side dots, maybe they used it as a guide when taping the sides of the fb. This 530WP also shows how the paint line is a bit wonky (as well as how the side dots were installed) with respect to the fret tangs. So we can conclude that out of the factory, the painting was a bit all over the place.

With repainting, yeah, tricky. You'd have to see where the actual line b/w the fb and neck is and score along it so you can isolate the respective areas. It's the clear coat which goes yellow on these and it would be indeed tricky to match the rest of the guitar, even if you were to experiment with tinting. Also possible to go all out and strip it (keeping the headstock face) and having a satin/oil surface, but that's a big job.

Seems fixable on the whole though.

 

[Mr_Scotia]

Unfortunately the gouge has a slight mechanical impact too, its one of the reasons i noticed it intitially. When you play chords or even single notes on the E string its dangerously close to the edge of the fretboard/fret sometimes, its quite noticeable when your playing it sometimes and it just feels terrible.

My plan was actually to try cut out the damaged strip of rosewood and re-radius the whole board and re-fret. I think it might be the least invasive repair and i can just darken down the fretboard to hide it (hopefully) As it stands, since ive put that Wizard neck on the guitar is 100% viable now though, before that it was genuinely a paperweight. I think il keep the Wizard neck on throughout my ownership and il figure out the RR250 neck at a later date.

You can see in this photo how close the E gets to the edge of the fret, because the Power Rock'r has individual saddles the string spacing can move slightly which doesnt help the situation. It comes very close to the extreme edge on the fret

 

[Ashurbanipal]

Mm, yes, flash shows the issue better. I'm still trying to get my head around them letting it out the door.

Yes, that's a good plan. You can use India ink to darken rosewood, so making a new piece match visually would be no problem. Also, a dark board on a white/creamy guitar is *chef kiss.

Here's to fixer upper prowess 🍻.

 

[Mr_Scotia]

Its really bad, even i was surprised it passed any QC. Not much i can do now, the RR250 neck is on the back burner for some time. Wizard neck was lying spare anyway and it works quite well on the RR250 body.

My new nut arrived today so i got that fitted to finally match the fretboard radius correctly. Also took the neck off to modify the existing neck shim but its still too big so il need to redo it. Not too stressed with this, plays better than it ever did, action still slightly high due to my shim being too big causing the strings to contact the last few frets on the fretboard in some areas.

My repair to the neck pocket is basically just a Stew Mac shim thats been cut to make up for the 0.6mm difference in height. I sanded it smooth to blend it with the neck pocket, visually you can see a line but when you feel it with your finger its basically flat. Its stuck down with kids glue so it can be removed if needed.

Edit: I should note, it needs a modified shim just to repair the damaged neck pocket, and another shim to then bring the neck angle straight.

 

[Ashurbanipal]

Nice work. Yes, most of them need shims anyway to get the neck angle just right, you see plenty of old ones which have them from the factory.

 

[Mr_Scotia]

The shim seems to be a good gauge for how much they cared about the guitar when building it. I only have 2 that need proper neck shims, and by that i mean something like Stew Mac uses, ie: 0.25 degree, 0.5 degree etc. All my other guitars could maybe use a little card shim at most but my RS140 and this RR250 need proper shims.
I made a little custom maple veneer shim for my RS140 last year and it didn't cut it so i bought a Stew Mac one and it solved the issue immediately. Its also useful knowing the angle the neck needs to come up by instead of just guessing. Crimson Guitars now sell those same shims in the UK and its like £7 posted to my door so i just use them.

Ive also noticed the strings seem to sit high up off the fretboard at the first fret so im wondering if i should shim the nut down slightly. For reference i can fit a 1mm feeler gauge between the string and the tip of the first fret on the RR250 but on my RR50 the underside of the string is almost touching the first fret, the action is incredibly low by comparison.

I just bought this nut used for £18 posted so i don't mind having to take it down a bit if i have to, obviously this body pre-dates the Edge bridge so it was never designed for this neck or nut. Il mess about with the neck shim first and see where that wants to lie before i sand the nut down though.

Ive tried to photograph the difference, only thing to note is different string gauges. one is 48 and the other is 54.

 

[Ashurbanipal]

For whatever reason the geometry with every guitar is a bit different. I've never measured the angle of neck pockets so I don't know if any is built in. It's probably easier to mass produce if it's just flat 🤷‍♀️ . Also, as the frets wear and you recrown them etc., shimming may be necessary to get better play up the neck; and with recessed Edge guitars, as Rich often talks about, many need a shim if you want decent pull-up range.

It does look like it should come down. A way to check the nut height/slots is to fret the strings at the 3rd then tap them against the 1st - there should be a very small amount of clearance. If it's too much, it's harder to play, and since you're pressing down more, the notes will be sharp and it's difficult to compensate it out at the bridge. Likewise, if it's too low, so they're hitting the fret with that little tap test, you may get buzzing with open strings and first couple of frets.

 

[Mr_Scotia]

For sure, even the different between a fresh blade and a dull blade on the cutting machine will cause a difference, or slight variation in the casting or machining process for the nut. All will slightly deviate from each other and add up to create a decent number. If the nut is off by 0.1mm and the neck pocket by 0.2mm and maybe the bridge is slightly more recessed due to that new blade that was fitted on the machine so that's 0.3mm difference.

Add it all up and its over half a milimeter, which is a very tight working tolerance but when you add it all up on an instrument it starts to impact the performance. As it stands the neck shim in my RR250 is slightly too big meaning im having to keep action a bit high to compensate for the fretboard kicking up as it nears the body. Its not a major amount though and im not confident that when i re-do the neck shim that the action at the first fret will be acceptable.

I think overall with this thing it will just be constant tweaking until its right, Its never had a Wizard neck on it before so im basically making it up as i go along. With that said im starting to think it will turn out quite good when its all said and done. The locking nut actually makes a big difference to tuning stability, i think with those Wilkinson locking saddles it would do quite well, ive still not put my Ibanez backstop in it either so it can only improve from here really.

 

[Cheechoo]

And then there is this '86 PL2660 for sale. All original minus the finish. Best offer on this site for awhile longer. Its a neck thru sustain monster. You wont be disappointed